Cries & Whispers vs. Mesh

It seems that Cries & Whispers is often labelled as Mesh (it was on Substance) and people often confuse the two. Both were on the EGG 12" and Mesh was also on FACTUS 8 12"/CD 5 track with Temptation etc.

I think both are great early NO songs but I particularly like Mesh and have been thrashing it again lately. What do the rest of you think about Mesh - lyrics are hard to understand aren't they?

"Mesh" (the version on Disc 2 of "Substance") is an interesting song, even though the lyrics are more than strange (i.e. look for one of the threads going on right now regarding Bernard's lyrics!)...

Every time I hear the song, it reminds me of weird voodoo, some kind of strange chanting...almost spellcasting. I dunno, it's a strange track and I don't mind listening to it...

There certainly is a lot of confusion about which is which, however the following would appear to be true:

Cries And Whispers has the opening line "Filled with desire, the empty scene..."

Mesh has the opening line "Below the surface, this day I feel it bite..."

The sleeve of the Benelux 12" lists the songs in the correct order, the label does not.

Mesh on Substance is correctly credited. Mesh on FACTUS8 / FEP313 is wrongly credited, it is Cries And Whispers.

It looks like they are about to make the same mistake on Retro....

Oops!

Sorry, have to disagree. Substance is wrong and the listing on Retro is finally putting the correct titles on the songs once again.

This is an age-old one, that nobody has ever answered with 100% certainty. JS ?

So come on then....someone must know!

Mind you, i dont know if i can accept the truth after all these years!!

Originally posted by bill poster Sorry, have to disagree. Substance is wrong and the listing on Retro is finally putting the correct titles on the songs once again.

I think that Mesh on Substance is the correct song. On Retro, Cries and Whispers will be in fact Mesh.

Originally posted by In a Lonely Place > Originally posted by bill poster> Sorry, have to disagree. Substance is wrong and the listing on Retro is finally putting the correct titles on the songs once again.

I think that Mesh on Substance is the correct song. On Retro, Cries and Whispers will be in fact Mesh.

What's the point of that?? 99.95% of us have Substance, why put out "Mesh" when "Cries and Whispers" is there for the taking?

Originally posted by mr_nobbs So come on then....someone must know!Mind you, i dont know if i can accept the truth after all these years!!

perhaps the truth is that there is no truth. Maybe the band themselves never really got it straight?

Old Blue wrote "Cries And Whispers has the opening line "Filled with desire, the empty scene..."

Mesh has the opening line "Below the surface, this day I feel it bite...""

that's backwards from what I always thought those songs were, but I don't have any special knowledge about it.

Originally posted by bill poster Sorry, have to disagree. Substance is wrong and the listing on Retro is finally putting the correct titles on the songs once again.

Nah, put it this way: The original 'Everything's Gone Green' Factory Benelux 12" - the song beginning "filled with desire, the empty scene" is titled as 'Cries And Whispers', as it is on the later released CD version of this single. On 'Substance'. that's the same. The only place 'Mesh' is incorrect is on the '1981-1982' CD and 12", which leads me to suspect they got it wrong across the Atlantic.

The original release and 'Substance' called that song 'Cries And Whispers', the '1981-1982' EP didn't. Also don't forget both songs appear on the 'Substance' cassette, side 3 - and they appear with 'Cries And Whispers' being the song mentioned above. It looks like it's going to be (another) mistake on Retro, surprise, surprise.

Andy.

whats the one that opens with the vocoder "1-2-3-4" ?

Hurt

i cam never remember what any of the b-sides are called

So let me get this straight:

Is Cries & Whispers the song that goes "ship sails out to sea away from me I just stand and stare" or is this Mesh?

I am and have always been confused about this. I'm sure on my original 12 " there is a bit of mis-labelling going on between whats printed on the sleeve and the vinyl.

Originally posted by Mr Disco So let me get this straight:Is Cries & Whispers the song that goes "ship sails out to sea away from me I just stand and stare" or is this Mesh?I am and have always been confused about this. I'm sure on my original 12 " there is a bit of mis-labelling going on between whats printed on the sleeve and the vinyl.

When they played the song that contained the above lyrics on the 83 US tour, it was listed as "Cries and Whispers" on the band's set-lists. That's all I know.

On the other hand, live concert recordings from before the release of the 12" have Cries & Whispers being the 'Below the surface' one. I knew these songs before they were first released and as far as I was concerned, Substance was mislabelled.

Originally posted by bill poster On the other hand, live concert recordings from before the release of the 12" have Cries & Whispers being the 'Below the surface' one. I knew these songs before they were first released and as far as I was concerned, Substance was mislabelled.

This is what the New Order Discography has to say on the subject:

Everything's Gone Green

1981-1982

Substance 1987

Andy.

hmmm...still no clearer !

the lyrics 'below the surface...' and ..."I just stand and stare' are from the same song, the one I have known as Cries and Whispers for years. My tapes of this song played live around 80/81, which didn't happen very many times, are labeled that way, but I don't recall if I made the song lists after listening to the tapes or if I got them with the trades (I've had those tapes for about 12 or 13 years).

I just asked Hooky, and all he said was "please let me out", so no help there....

I have all them CDs/ALBUMS/12 INCHERS but i don't have ANY idea.Just call em song one and song two.Then relax and enjoy both.Works for me.:D

this may be just something designed to fuck with our minds and produce discussions of this nature. remember that they had alternate titles for all their early songs: "death rattle", etc. same thing happening here i reckon.

let's call them "the one with the drony synth intro" and "the one with the evil bass intro" - cos barney's lyrics ain't up to much anyway :)

"drony synth" is on the substance cd, which (imho) is the better of the 2 anyway. can't remember which way they were labelled on the cassette, but i'll dig it out next time i'm back at the parents. i only have the benelux EGG twelver, so all i can say is that the songs are definitely mislabelled on either the vinyl or the sleeve on this. can't remember which one came first though... any help?

so the real question is what are we gonna get on "retro"? i feel that given that "retro" will be the most recent statement on the matter of which is which, that's the one that should hold the most weight. unless the band themselves have forgotten.

it seems to me that most early New Order songs have evil bass and drony synth, so I'll refer to them as 'what do they want from me' and 'we never compromise' (which I believe to be 'cries and whispers' unless/until a band member clearly states otherwise).

Solved it !!! Just been listening to a US 83 tape, and on the track that begins "below the surface", Hooky adds backing vocals at one stage, clearly singing "Cries and Whispers".

Cool. What tape is that ? I thought they had retired that song by that point.

Hmm well i guess that does settle it Cobweb geezer! So for years i (and many others by sound of it)have got the two tracks mixed up?!! I dont know if i can cope with a change this monumental in my life!!

There is only one place where is was wrong - and that is much mentioned prior "1981 FEP313 1982" EP - both songs are labeled correctly everywhere else, and I am sure that Retro will have it right again. It was a single mistake on one album not some massive bumbling conspiracy that has been perpetuated throughout the ages by vicious mindless record companies like some NO conspiracy theorists would like to make you believe - the simplest answer is usually the correct one. One album right and every other wrong OR one album wrong (which is documentented everywhere)? Hum... I wonder.

Wolfmann, it was also wrong on Substance and on either the sleeve or the label of the Belgian 3 track 12", which I suspect was the original mistake that was the cause of the others

Originally posted by teleharmonium Wolfmann, it was also wrong on Substance and on either the sleeve or the label of the Belgian 3 track 12", which I suspect was the original mistake that was the cause of the others

Maybe the Belgian 3 track (I don't have it), but on my Substance it is correct.

What I believe to be Cries And Whispers is the better song, in an Ennio Morricone type of way. Work the rest out for yourself.

Hint: We made a contract

Despite what anyone says here, in my mind that track will always be 'Cries And Whispers'. If it's wrong on 1981-82 then I'm right. If not, then so be it - I don't care: it's been 'Cries And Whispers' to me since 1987 and always shall be.

It's just a song title after all - not like it's in the lyrics anyway (which would clear it up for all fo us). Class song, anyway.

Andy.

I'm looking at the cassette version of Substance which has both songs on it... 3. Cries and Whispers - 12B2 FBN (3:00) 4. Mesh - 12B3 FBN (3:25)

Now I have the CD version of EGG... 2. Mesh (3:25) 3. Cries and Whispers (3:00)

And last, the CD of 1981-1982 5. Mesh (3:00)

Now, that's two offical releases against one, so in my opinion the real Mesh is the song that opens up with the synth and is 3:25 long.

However, Substance states that Mesh was the third b-side, but on the EGG single it's actually the first b-side. The FBN 12" version of EGG only had two b-sides, but Substance says that Procession was one of them. Wasn't Procession a single on it's own with a 7" edit of EGG as a b-side?

Originally posted by Low-Life Wasn't Procession a single on it's own with a 7" edit of EGG as a b-side?

When the 'Everything's Gone Green' seven inch came out it was just called 'Everything's Gone Green/Procession'. As far as I recall, the actual A side was EGG, but these things were always vague on New Order releases anyway. On that strength, True Faith was a double A with 1963, as the titles appear together!

A quick look at the run out on the seven inch shows both sides labelled as Fac53, with no A or B stated, simply 'Hard' (EGG) and 'Soft' (Procession).

A double A then, I think!

Andy.

I think it was officially a double A single although everyone I knew regarded Procession as the 'real' A-side. Set lists from 1980 clearly state Cries & Whispers as the 'below the surface...' one, hence Substance is wrong.

Originally posted by bill poster Set lists from 1980 clearly state Cries & Whispers as the 'below the surface...' one, hence Substance is wrong.

At last ! Someone who agrees with me !!

Originally posted by Benny's Cobweb Eyes > Originally posted by bill poster> Set lists from 1980 clearly state Cries & Whispers as the 'below the surface...' one, hence Substance is wrong.

At last ! Someone who agrees with me !!

The 2 songs appears together on my EGG CD (FBNL 8):

1. 5:31 EEG
2. 3:25 Mesh ('below the surface...')
3. 3:00 Cries and Whispers

I suppose, it's the right order. And Mesh (the song and the title) correspond to the Mesh on my Substance.

Originally posted by In a Lonely Place > Originally posted by Benny's Cobweb Eyes> > > > Originally posted by bill poster> > Set lists from 1980 clearly state Cries & Whispers as the 'below the surface...' one, hence Substance is wrong.>

At last ! Someone who agrees with me !!

The 2 songs appears together on my EGG CD (FBNL 8):

1. 5:31 EEG
2. 3:25 Mesh ('below the surface...')
3. 3:00 Cries and Whispers

I suppose, it's the right order. And Mesh (the song and the title) correspond to the Mesh on my Substance.

Wrong.

I agree with you too Benny, and I think it's easy to see that all the misinformation came from the cover/record label error on the FBN 12". Isn't there an accounting of this in one of the books on JD/NO ? I used to have 'An Ideal for Living' and one other fan type book and I thought one of them addressed the mesh/c+w mixup.

Originally posted by teleharmonium Isn't there an accounting of this in one of the books on JD/NO ? I used to have 'An Ideal for Living' and one other fan type book and I thought one of them addressed the mesh/c+w mixup.

Don't remember reading anything about it - mind you, if it's in 'An Ideal For Living' it's bound to be wrong !!

Excellent e-mail from t'other site which summarises the situation perfectly :

Ok, I took some time to investigate if I could find a final solution to solve this silly Mesh, Cries And Whispers problem. A little introduction. I’m a very early hour Joy Division / New Order fan. I started collecting them early eighties after seeing Joy Division play in the Paradiso. Although I took some time-of collecting in the early Nineties I took up collecting again in 1998 after the last New Order Peel session. My JD/NO vinyl collection is complete + and my cd collection almost.

We start at the beginning with the 1st release: The Everything Gone Green 12” (vinyl), released on Factory Benelux in late 1981. On that release the A-side has EGG, the b-side label mentiones two tracks Cries & Whispers and Mesh. The first track starts with a sort of flanged synth or guitar effect and lyrically with ‘Below the surface’, the other one starts with a bass and Bernard sings repeatedly ‘nobody knows’. To start the controversy immediately. The sleeve has the titles for the b-side REVERSED as Mesh and Cries & Whispers.

2nd release: The 1981 - FACTUS 8 - 1982 vinyl compilation. Here we find just one of the two tracks. Mesh appears as last track on the b-side. This songs starts with the bass and Bernard sings repeatedly ‘nobody knows’.

These two releases on vinyl are, until the beginning of the cd-era the only official releases of both tracks.

3rd (unofficial) release: A recording of the first ever recorded New Order gig. Scamps in Blackpool, Sept 5, 1980. This was an underground cassette release in the early eighties. Waterrats indispensable New Order gigography lists as the playlist: Dreams Never End, Trust (sic), Mesh, Homage, Sister Ray, Cries and Whispers and Ceremony. I have a copy of this recording on cassette and it has exactly these tracks in that same running order. I listened to it and the third track Mesh, although played a bit differently and with unfinished lyrics it is basically the same song as the one with the bass intro and the ‘Nobody knows’ lyrics. Cries And Whispers is the same song as the one wich starts with the flanged intro and the ‘Below the surface’ lyrics although it has unfinished lyrics also.

4th release: And then there is Substance. Compiled in 1987 as one of the first cd-releases ever. An idea by Tony Wilson who wanted something nice to play in his new car stereo. Vinyl and cassette weren’t finished yet so Substance came out in several formats. Double CD (with b-sides), double lp (no b-sides), Double DAT (with b-sides) and double-cassette (with b-side and bonus tracks). Here the things really start to go wrong. The second one of the Double CD has a track called Mesh, this is the track with the flanged intro and the ‘Below the surface’ lyrics. The second of the double DAT has this same track but there it is called Cries & Whispers on the sleeve. The second one of the double-cassette has BOTH tracks but with the one with flanged intro is called Mesh and the one with the bass intro and ‘Nobody knows’ lyrics is called Cries & Whispers.

From this point on every info on the songs is copied, the rights and the wrongs, so there is no need to make this story any longer. Unless a person in the know will speak out there will never be an end to this. Because the band always made up songtitles after recording the song, I even doubt if the band members themselves know which of the two songs is which. Looking at the mastertape boxes won’t solve this problem.

The only solution I found very plausible is that with every early New Order song the lyrics always have a connection with the title. If that is the case with these two tracks I will go for the Cries & Whispers song as the one with the ‘Below the surface’ lyrics and the flanged intro and Mesh as the song with the bass intro and ‘Nobody knows’ lyrics. If this is a correct assumption that means that in the first 3 releases (official and unofficial) there would only be one mistake, namely the sleeve for the FBN 12”.

Barney's handwriting on a setlist listing one of the two tracks, which was then played at the gig.......this might go some way to explaining it. Sure they've changed song titles before releasing tracks. Never done it two years after release though.

JS, could you ask the band to confirm please ?

It will be very interesting to scan all of these stuff (the vinyl labels (A&B sides), the vinyl sleeve, the gig set list...) to update the Discography section with a explanation of this confusion between Mesh and Cries & Whispers.

This is an issue that has always confused me. Here are the facts I have collected over the years:

Substance: 'Below the surface......' labelled as MESH. FACTUS8: 'Filled with desire......' labelled as MESH. Live at Scamp's, Blackpool 1980(+ other early gigs): 'Below the surface...'labelled as CRIES & WHISPERS. 'Filled with desire......' labelled as MESH.

This is all confusing stuff, but I have come to the following conclusion:

I read somewhere that MESH on FACTUS8 was mislabelled & should have been CRIES & WHISPERS. And also , why would New Order mislabel once again on the SUBSTANCE album? Hard to believe, so my conclusion is this:

'filled with desire......' CRIES & WHISPERS 'Below the surface......' MESH

I hope my research has put a few of you at ease, because I feel certian that this conclusion is right, unless I hear otherwise from a more accurate source.

SPREAD THE WORD!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by Mark Fahy This is an issue that has always confused me. Here are the facts I have collected over the years:Substance: 'Below the surface......' labelled as MESH.FACTUS8: 'Filled with desire......' labelled as MESH.Live at Scamp's, Blackpool 1980(+ other early gigs):'Below the surface...'labelled as CRIES & WHISPERS.'Filled with desire......' labelled as MESH.This is all confusing stuff, but I have come to the following conclusion:I read somewhere that MESH on FACTUS8 was mislabelled & should have been CRIES & WHISPERS. And also , why would New Order mislabel once again on the SUBSTANCE album? Hard to believe, so my conclusion is this:'filled with desire......' CRIES & WHISPERS'Below the surface......' MESH I hope my research has put a few of you at ease, because I feel certian that this conclusion is right, unless I hear otherwise from a more accurate source.SPREAD THE WORD!!!!!!!!!

Sorry Mark, but you have got it the wrong way round. I have a live version of "below the surface" from 83 where Hooky adds backing vocals, saying "Cries and Whispers", which corresponds with the set-list written by Barney of that show which listed the track as Cries and Whispers. Maybe one day someone involved with the band will confirm it once and for all, until then we will all get lost and confused with the mesh of cries and whispers that we get from the various mis-labellings. Why wasn't 24 Hours listed on Still ?

Sorry Mark, but you have got it the wrong way round. I have a live version of "below the surface" from 83 where Hooky adds backing vocals, saying "Cries and Whispers", which corresponds with the set-list written by Barney of that show which listed the track as Cries and Whispers. Maybe one day someone involved with the band will confirm it once and for all, until then we will all get lost and confused with the mesh of cries and whispers that we get from the various mis-labellings. Why wasn't 24 Hours listed on Still ?

Now I'm confused! It's one big confused state! NEW ORDER are to blame!! That's a very interesting fact, my esteemed colleague!

What's the '83 live version like ? Is it faithful to the recorded version or does it hark back to 1980 live versions ?

Originally posted by bill poster What's the '83 live version like ? Is it faithful to the recorded version or does it hark back to 1980 live versions ?

Pretty faithful to the recorded version, except that Hooky adds the words "cries and whispers" as the bass descends.

i think that barney reads this thread everyday and has a ball laughing his ass off because they he meant to do this i think there is no answer at all

i think that barney reads this thread everyday and has a ball laughing his ass off because they he meant to do this i think there is no answer at all