Cries & Whispers vs. Mesh

Wolfmann, it was also wrong on Substance and on either the sleeve or the label of the Belgian 3 track 12", which I suspect was the original mistake that was the cause of the others

Originally posted by teleharmonium Wolfmann, it was also wrong on Substance and on either the sleeve or the label of the Belgian 3 track 12", which I suspect was the original mistake that was the cause of the others

Maybe the Belgian 3 track (I don't have it), but on my Substance it is correct.

What I believe to be Cries And Whispers is the better song, in an Ennio Morricone type of way. Work the rest out for yourself.

Hint: We made a contract

Despite what anyone says here, in my mind that track will always be 'Cries And Whispers'. If it's wrong on 1981-82 then I'm right. If not, then so be it - I don't care: it's been 'Cries And Whispers' to me since 1987 and always shall be.

It's just a song title after all - not like it's in the lyrics anyway (which would clear it up for all fo us). Class song, anyway.

Andy.

I'm looking at the cassette version of Substance which has both songs on it... 3. Cries and Whispers - 12B2 FBN (3:00) 4. Mesh - 12B3 FBN (3:25)

Now I have the CD version of EGG... 2. Mesh (3:25) 3. Cries and Whispers (3:00)

And last, the CD of 1981-1982 5. Mesh (3:00)

Now, that's two offical releases against one, so in my opinion the real Mesh is the song that opens up with the synth and is 3:25 long.

However, Substance states that Mesh was the third b-side, but on the EGG single it's actually the first b-side. The FBN 12" version of EGG only had two b-sides, but Substance says that Procession was one of them. Wasn't Procession a single on it's own with a 7" edit of EGG as a b-side?

Originally posted by Low-Life Wasn't Procession a single on it's own with a 7" edit of EGG as a b-side?

When the 'Everything's Gone Green' seven inch came out it was just called 'Everything's Gone Green/Procession'. As far as I recall, the actual A side was EGG, but these things were always vague on New Order releases anyway. On that strength, True Faith was a double A with 1963, as the titles appear together!

A quick look at the run out on the seven inch shows both sides labelled as Fac53, with no A or B stated, simply 'Hard' (EGG) and 'Soft' (Procession).

A double A then, I think!

Andy.

I think it was officially a double A single although everyone I knew regarded Procession as the 'real' A-side. Set lists from 1980 clearly state Cries & Whispers as the 'below the surface...' one, hence Substance is wrong.

Originally posted by bill poster Set lists from 1980 clearly state Cries & Whispers as the 'below the surface...' one, hence Substance is wrong.

At last ! Someone who agrees with me !!

Originally posted by Benny's Cobweb Eyes > Originally posted by bill poster> Set lists from 1980 clearly state Cries & Whispers as the 'below the surface...' one, hence Substance is wrong.

At last ! Someone who agrees with me !!

The 2 songs appears together on my EGG CD (FBNL 8):

1. 5:31 EEG
2. 3:25 Mesh ('below the surface...')
3. 3:00 Cries and Whispers

I suppose, it's the right order. And Mesh (the song and the title) correspond to the Mesh on my Substance.

Originally posted by In a Lonely Place > Originally posted by Benny's Cobweb Eyes> > > > Originally posted by bill poster> > Set lists from 1980 clearly state Cries & Whispers as the 'below the surface...' one, hence Substance is wrong.>

At last ! Someone who agrees with me !!

The 2 songs appears together on my EGG CD (FBNL 8):

1. 5:31 EEG
2. 3:25 Mesh ('below the surface...')
3. 3:00 Cries and Whispers

I suppose, it's the right order. And Mesh (the song and the title) correspond to the Mesh on my Substance.

Wrong.

I agree with you too Benny, and I think it's easy to see that all the misinformation came from the cover/record label error on the FBN 12". Isn't there an accounting of this in one of the books on JD/NO ? I used to have 'An Ideal for Living' and one other fan type book and I thought one of them addressed the mesh/c+w mixup.

Originally posted by teleharmonium Isn't there an accounting of this in one of the books on JD/NO ? I used to have 'An Ideal for Living' and one other fan type book and I thought one of them addressed the mesh/c+w mixup.

Don't remember reading anything about it - mind you, if it's in 'An Ideal For Living' it's bound to be wrong !!

Excellent e-mail from t'other site which summarises the situation perfectly :

Ok, I took some time to investigate if I could find a final solution to solve this silly Mesh, Cries And Whispers problem. A little introduction. I’m a very early hour Joy Division / New Order fan. I started collecting them early eighties after seeing Joy Division play in the Paradiso. Although I took some time-of collecting in the early Nineties I took up collecting again in 1998 after the last New Order Peel session. My JD/NO vinyl collection is complete + and my cd collection almost.

We start at the beginning with the 1st release: The Everything Gone Green 12” (vinyl), released on Factory Benelux in late 1981. On that release the A-side has EGG, the b-side label mentiones two tracks Cries & Whispers and Mesh. The first track starts with a sort of flanged synth or guitar effect and lyrically with ‘Below the surface’, the other one starts with a bass and Bernard sings repeatedly ‘nobody knows’. To start the controversy immediately. The sleeve has the titles for the b-side REVERSED as Mesh and Cries & Whispers.

2nd release: The 1981 - FACTUS 8 - 1982 vinyl compilation. Here we find just one of the two tracks. Mesh appears as last track on the b-side. This songs starts with the bass and Bernard sings repeatedly ‘nobody knows’.

These two releases on vinyl are, until the beginning of the cd-era the only official releases of both tracks.

3rd (unofficial) release: A recording of the first ever recorded New Order gig. Scamps in Blackpool, Sept 5, 1980. This was an underground cassette release in the early eighties. Waterrats indispensable New Order gigography lists as the playlist: Dreams Never End, Trust (sic), Mesh, Homage, Sister Ray, Cries and Whispers and Ceremony. I have a copy of this recording on cassette and it has exactly these tracks in that same running order. I listened to it and the third track Mesh, although played a bit differently and with unfinished lyrics it is basically the same song as the one with the bass intro and the ‘Nobody knows’ lyrics. Cries And Whispers is the same song as the one wich starts with the flanged intro and the ‘Below the surface’ lyrics although it has unfinished lyrics also.

4th release: And then there is Substance. Compiled in 1987 as one of the first cd-releases ever. An idea by Tony Wilson who wanted something nice to play in his new car stereo. Vinyl and cassette weren’t finished yet so Substance came out in several formats. Double CD (with b-sides), double lp (no b-sides), Double DAT (with b-sides) and double-cassette (with b-side and bonus tracks). Here the things really start to go wrong. The second one of the Double CD has a track called Mesh, this is the track with the flanged intro and the ‘Below the surface’ lyrics. The second of the double DAT has this same track but there it is called Cries & Whispers on the sleeve. The second one of the double-cassette has BOTH tracks but with the one with flanged intro is called Mesh and the one with the bass intro and ‘Nobody knows’ lyrics is called Cries & Whispers.

From this point on every info on the songs is copied, the rights and the wrongs, so there is no need to make this story any longer. Unless a person in the know will speak out there will never be an end to this. Because the band always made up songtitles after recording the song, I even doubt if the band members themselves know which of the two songs is which. Looking at the mastertape boxes won’t solve this problem.

The only solution I found very plausible is that with every early New Order song the lyrics always have a connection with the title. If that is the case with these two tracks I will go for the Cries & Whispers song as the one with the ‘Below the surface’ lyrics and the flanged intro and Mesh as the song with the bass intro and ‘Nobody knows’ lyrics. If this is a correct assumption that means that in the first 3 releases (official and unofficial) there would only be one mistake, namely the sleeve for the FBN 12”.

Barney's handwriting on a setlist listing one of the two tracks, which was then played at the gig.......this might go some way to explaining it. Sure they've changed song titles before releasing tracks. Never done it two years after release though.

JS, could you ask the band to confirm please ?

It will be very interesting to scan all of these stuff (the vinyl labels (A&B sides), the vinyl sleeve, the gig set list...) to update the Discography section with a explanation of this confusion between Mesh and Cries & Whispers.

This is an issue that has always confused me. Here are the facts I have collected over the years:

Substance: 'Below the surface......' labelled as MESH. FACTUS8: 'Filled with desire......' labelled as MESH. Live at Scamp's, Blackpool 1980(+ other early gigs): 'Below the surface...'labelled as CRIES & WHISPERS. 'Filled with desire......' labelled as MESH.

This is all confusing stuff, but I have come to the following conclusion:

I read somewhere that MESH on FACTUS8 was mislabelled & should have been CRIES & WHISPERS. And also , why would New Order mislabel once again on the SUBSTANCE album? Hard to believe, so my conclusion is this:

'filled with desire......' CRIES & WHISPERS 'Below the surface......' MESH

I hope my research has put a few of you at ease, because I feel certian that this conclusion is right, unless I hear otherwise from a more accurate source.

SPREAD THE WORD!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by Mark Fahy This is an issue that has always confused me. Here are the facts I have collected over the years:Substance: 'Below the surface......' labelled as MESH.FACTUS8: 'Filled with desire......' labelled as MESH.Live at Scamp's, Blackpool 1980(+ other early gigs):'Below the surface...'labelled as CRIES & WHISPERS.'Filled with desire......' labelled as MESH.This is all confusing stuff, but I have come to the following conclusion:I read somewhere that MESH on FACTUS8 was mislabelled & should have been CRIES & WHISPERS. And also , why would New Order mislabel once again on the SUBSTANCE album? Hard to believe, so my conclusion is this:'filled with desire......' CRIES & WHISPERS'Below the surface......' MESH I hope my research has put a few of you at ease, because I feel certian that this conclusion is right, unless I hear otherwise from a more accurate source.SPREAD THE WORD!!!!!!!!!

Sorry Mark, but you have got it the wrong way round. I have a live version of "below the surface" from 83 where Hooky adds backing vocals, saying "Cries and Whispers", which corresponds with the set-list written by Barney of that show which listed the track as Cries and Whispers. Maybe one day someone involved with the band will confirm it once and for all, until then we will all get lost and confused with the mesh of cries and whispers that we get from the various mis-labellings. Why wasn't 24 Hours listed on Still ?

Sorry Mark, but you have got it the wrong way round. I have a live version of "below the surface" from 83 where Hooky adds backing vocals, saying "Cries and Whispers", which corresponds with the set-list written by Barney of that show which listed the track as Cries and Whispers. Maybe one day someone involved with the band will confirm it once and for all, until then we will all get lost and confused with the mesh of cries and whispers that we get from the various mis-labellings. Why wasn't 24 Hours listed on Still ?

Now I'm confused! It's one big confused state! NEW ORDER are to blame!! That's a very interesting fact, my esteemed colleague!

What's the '83 live version like ? Is it faithful to the recorded version or does it hark back to 1980 live versions ?

Originally posted by bill poster What's the '83 live version like ? Is it faithful to the recorded version or does it hark back to 1980 live versions ?

Pretty faithful to the recorded version, except that Hooky adds the words "cries and whispers" as the bass descends.

i think that barney reads this thread everyday and has a ball laughing his ass off because they he meant to do this i think there is no answer at all

i think that barney reads this thread everyday and has a ball laughing his ass off because they he meant to do this i think there is no answer at all