which band - JD or NO - has been more influential?

this is an incredibly tough question. in so many ways, i could pick either. but overall, i think that what Joy Division did in terms of their contribution to Post-Punk has made more of an overall impact on music, culture, etc. than New Order.

but this is really, really tough to answer.

what do you think?

Love both dearly, but the bigger influence lies with joy division, at least for now. They literally changed the course of rock music at a huge level. Their influence is widespread and transcends genre. Artists as diverse as U2, nine inch nails, nirvana, the red house painters, jeff buckley and, believe it or not, george michael ( and countless others) give tremendous credit to joy division as not only an influence, but in some cases as the sole reason they ever got involved in music to begin with. I can hear joy division in plenty of bands that have probably never even heard them, which indicates to me that their influence is truly awesome.

while JD were influential in the post-punk world, i think a few other bands were arguably up there, as well. however, new order were it when it came to the development of dance music in the 1980s. tough call, though. the whole package, 1977-present, has been phenomenal.

i'd have to say that JD was more influential, but new order deserves many accolades. in my opinion, new order is one of the best pop groups. period. if we look at music today, it seems to be regressing in a way that shows JD's influence. what with the influx of post-punk bands. these bands aren't so much copying the sound of JD but the feeling and emotions evoked ie. xiu xiu etc. though, i'd be leery to mention interpol because, interpol(for me) is *not* similar to joy division...maybe in feeling--but that is it.

Hmmm, seems like a toughie...

But since JD so obviously influenced NO (well duh!) shurely they must win by default.

Indeed a difficult poll here! But as much as Joy Division influenced my musical taste and interest in underground music (and it was a MAJOR shaping influence, after The Beatles and The Clash), I'd have to go for New Order here. The combination of heartfelt music, those basslines and the rhytmic inventions created whole new opportunities for all bands to follow... And to make my point even clearer: what about the impact of "Blue Monday" for a start?! Though Joy Division may be the general inspirational point for lots of bands, New Order created a musical revolution, without them there would never have been that whole Stone Roses/Happy Mondays thing. They drew in the underground dance factor in their music in a way unprecedented! So that's why I choose them, although I think no New Order album matches the quality of "Closer" or "Unknown Pleasures".

NewOrder, because the influenced dance music which has proved to have more potent influence than post-punk (which had nowhere to go) in the last 20 years and is still going strong.. ie: infinate possibilities for track remixes,dj's, nighclubs,raves,drugs,genres of dance music, computer music software, solid state synths, guitar mesh, etc..etc..

Great poll. First instinct is JD / post-punk etc. etc. But if you listen to PC&L a couple of times, then listen to much of the dance / trance / club stuff all the way through to now, it's clear, to me at least, that NO have had the greater influence.

JD may be mentioned in the same breath as Nirvana, Velvet Underground etc. but essentially they were a great one-off. When it comes to bands which actually influenced the development of music, and changed music history, then I think NO are one of the very, very few bands that did.

Blue Monday was voted the 9th most influential song of all time in a recent poll by Rolling Stone. I went with New Order because ultimately their influence with this song in dance/pop circles is ultimately greater than JD's gothic rock slant.

Although I lean more towards JD, I have to say that New Order has influenced more bands.

From, Will

In my opinion, JD has really opened a door - like main punk rock bands - for lots of musicians to go from safety (state of music in the late 70’s) to where ?... Answer : to what I like to listen to nowadays (including NO)!!! Instead of that, when NO rocketed dance music with “Blue Monday”, they did nothing but orbiting what Kraftwerk launched a few years before. So I think the influence of JD is the greatest.

there are loads of upcoming bands who are so obviously influenced by joy division(and excellent ones at that) whenever i think of bands that were inspired by new order i cant help but think of the godawful pet shop boys! so,much as i love new order for me personally jd have the best influence.

Originally posted by harry dillon there are loads of upcoming bands who are so obviously influenced by joy division(and excellent ones at that)whenever i think of bands that were inspired by new order i cant help but think of the godawful pet shop boys!so,much as i love new order for me personally jd have the best influence.

New Order main influence is Joy division

Originally posted by Al Jarvis New Order, by the proverbial...Blue Monday influenced faaaar more people than any singular Joy Division track ever did.

Al

You have been going to night clubs a lot

Let's ask John Peel

It has to be New Order. JD did add unique elements to the post-punk scene, and I think they were the most important band to immediately follow in the path of punk. But I think NO's contribution to music evolution has been far greater. I consider the electronic music scene as a much more significant scene than punk has been, and NO were the UK founders. I would even go as far to say (sorry in advance JD fans), that Blue Monday alone has been more influential than JD's output. :)

NO. why?

i can't help but think that they have a lot to do with the development of electro-clash. age of c. & paradise fuse tech & rock together so well, just like the faint and ladytron are doing today (though, these two could use more guitar)

What do I think ? I think you should get out more.

Same band, same songwriters by and large, different singers, different producers by and large. Joy Division's influence was to change the way people used their instruments and production, still within the same genre. New Ordre break new ground with every record.

You might get a different perspective this side of the pond, Rolling Stone gathers no readership here.

Originally posted by Known Pleasures What do I think ? I think you should get out more.Same band, same songwriters by and large, different singers, different producers by and large. Joy Division's influence was to change the way people used their instruments and production, still within the same genre. New Ordre break new ground with every record.You might get a different perspective this side of the pond, Rolling Stone gathers no readership here.

You can't compare 3 short years of existance with 20 long years.For the short period of existence they were brilliant.

You can't compare 3 short years of existance with 20 long years.For the short period of existence they were brilliant.

Joy Division: Transmission to Love Will Tear Us Apart, one year apart? Nothing comes close to what they progressed in such a short period of time.

but the question at hand is about influence, not creative progress. it is about how often you see elements of a band in newer groups, not "which one of these bands was better?"

new order does have a 17+ year advantage, but that is just something we have to factor in when we place our votes.

Originally posted by Sean Taugher but the question at hand is about influence, not creative progress. it is about how often you see elements of a band in newer groups, not "which one of these bands was better?"new order does have a 17+ year advantage, but that is just something we have to factor in when we place our votes.

I know, i'm just not clever enough or can bother with the pseudo intelectual claptrap around me

Bernard Sumner's words : "Joy Division changed music"

but don't you think barney is a little biased? i mean, he is talking about his own band, and all.

which came first, the chicken or the egg?

the cock of dawn

According to the (admittedly iffy) Radio 2 documentary, New Order are "the most influential British band of our age"

there both the same band anyway even if ian curtis wasnt playing with the washing line they still wouldve ended up the same

JOY DIVISION DEFINATLEY!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by Chris New Order are the biggest influence on modern music and the biggest influence on them was Joy Division.New Order win for influencing more bands and musical styles in total.

How many of these are commercial bands ?

Ok this is going to go off on a bit of a tangent but bear with me. Both bands had huge influence but I think overall its Joy Division.

Firstly New Order. The defining song for them as a band unto themselves (and not in the shadow of Joy Division) was Blue Monday. Huge influence on dance based music right? Yeah. So let's look at the bands: I hear that in Dead or Alive, subsequent OMD, Bronski Beat, Pet Shop Boys and a bunch of New Order rip off bands, like Information Society. So the main influence there is, believe it or not Dead or Alive, who was produced by...Stock Aitken Waterman. Who went on to have huge success with Rick Astley, Kylie Minogue and defined that whole mainstream hi-energy pop that framed the late 80's.

Now here people will say, "Yeah but what about house music, what part did New Order play in that?" Hmmm. Its a common argument, but I would argue it was Kraftwork first in this respect. If you look at the origins of house in Detroit and Chicago, they were taking Kraftwork type beats (Roland 808's, 909's) and speeding them up and layering them with Philly disco piano breaks. So it was really updated disco with a Teutonic coolness. In fact obviously the Hacienda played more of an influnce in the explosion of acid house in England, but although New Order owned it, that's a categorically different type of influence to New Order's actual music output. Bands like The Happy Mondays and The Stone Roses let the vibe of the Hacienda mix with their Manchester leanings to create this baggy hybrid. But I don't hear a lot of New Order's music or aesthetic in either of those two hugely influencial bands. The commonality was being Manc more than anything else.

Now Joy Division. There's four main things that makes Joy Division's influence so prevalent: Bernard Sumner's guitar playing, Peter Hook's lead bass, Martin Hannett's production techniques, and Ian Curtis's cult of personality.

Most of you have only acknowledged The goth influence directly related to the pathos generated by the Curtis legend. Fine. Its true. But Sumner's guitar playing is so underrated. Johnny Marr himself has said that Sumner was directly responsible for the Cure sound and all the other early 80's emotive bands like Tears for Fears. Those guys had no place to go without the Sumner motifs.

Then of course Hooky's bass. Influenced many bands directly: Sebadoh, Badly Drawn Boy, Wedding Present, Ned's Atomic Dustbin, Interpol; as well as many bands indirectly showing them that the bass could be played as a lead instrument.

Martin Hannett. Invented the modern reverb/digital delay sound. Cold but full of fractured depth. Invented the modern snare sound. As heard on Cure, Depeche Mode, REM, U2, Tool, Happy Mondays, NIN and hundreds of other bands.

Finally the whole package. Joy Division had a huge influence on the Cure and Depeche Mode and a host of other contemporaries. There's even good evidence to suggest they were an influence on the Smiths even though historically the Smiths famously removed themselves from the Factory fold. Then of course the industrial bands. Joy Division invented Skinny Puppy and that whole Chicago Wax Trax vibe; Big Black, KMFDM, Ministry, NIN. This in turn helped open up the crossover between metal and post punk, bringing a new darker, introspective aesthetic to metal. What's that? Its definitely Nirvana. I would also say that's Korn. So if one gets truely ambitious, one could say Joy Division was responsible for Nü Metal! Although a dubious honor it is no doubt. And now its starting again in the vibe of a lot of the newer New York bands, like Interpol and the Yeah, Yeah, Yeahs.

So there you have it: Joy Divsion is the more influencial band. By the time of New Order, A lot of other bands had caught up and were driving music inovation. New Order were a great singles band, but their influence had far less impact than Joy Division with Martin Hannett together inventing a lot of the motifs, themes, conventions and sounds still being used in modern rock music.

Nice analysis there Sismundi (though I'm struggling to connect JD with the Yeah Yeah Yeahs!). But I've always thought that Blue Monday was the type of song that JD could have gone on to make (as opposed to, say, Temptation or AOC)