Too early for this? Possibly, but who cares eh? Always good to have things to mull over.

So what do we want to see?

My thoughts:

Firstly, I think we have to discuss the 'Substance' problem.

If they are going to do a Substance 'Definitive Edition', any material from 1986-7 could be split over two sets. However, this might be a bit weird when it comes to what is featured in the books in each set; they'll basically be covering the same period.

As I've said before (many times, probably), I'm not convinced that Substance needs a 'Definitive Edition' (i.e. in the same style as the 'studio' LPs). An expanded 'deluxe' reissue would suit me. Just vinyl and/or CDs with expanded track listing would be fine. Have all of the b-sides. Possibly add things like the original Temptation and Confusion 12"s, the original Ceremony, Confusion Dub '87 etc. There is also the fact that most tracks on the release will have already been remastered by this point, so this compilation would seem more to be 'something nice to have' rather than 'something that is needed' (if you get my drift) (All that being said, I would certainly buy a 'Definitive Edition' if they released one.)

The benefits of having split Definitives for both Brotherhood and Substance would be the possibility of more stuff and also being able to split the appropriate 12"s (of which there are more for this period than the other sets) over two separate release schedules.

As I'd prefer only one Definitive Edition for the period, I'll work on that premise for my 'wants'. So here we go with possible inclusions:

LP/CD1 - Full LP, remastered.:

I'd probably not include 'State Of The Nation' as I never really think of it as being part of the LP (although it was on the original CD version).

CD2 Various demo and rare tracks.:

Presumably there will be demos and writing sessions for most LP tracks. I have demos of Paradise and As It Is When It Was, so we know some exist (NB The former sounds like more of a 'rough mix' and the latter might actually be from the Low-Life period). It would be nice to have a vocal demo of Bizarre Love Triangle from this period containing those extra lines that feature in live versions from the period.

We also know that demos exist for the Salvation tracks, including a vocal demo for the 'Nothing For Me' variant of 'Let's Go'. Even if these weren't included, I'd be amenable to the actual released versions of the Salvation tracks being on there, considering their scarcity.

Considering the lack of many 'vocal' versions of demos on the last two sets, there might be a reluctance on the band's (Bernard's?) part to release demos like this. So, we might expect to see something similar for 'Brotherhood'.

Finally, there are a number of different mixes of Blue Monday 1988 available online that have appeared before. Maybe one of these could feature. I can't remember if any of these are any good or worth including though.

DVDs:

TV performances:

The Tube (Broken Promise & State Of The Nation) Les Enfants Du Rock (Paradise & BLT) TOTP (True Faith) The Roxy (True Faith) Palarock Festival (True Faith)

Gigs - the ones I know about that were filmed (at least partially) from the period are:

27/01/86 Queen's College, Belfast (from 'Channel One' TV programme) 29/06/86 Greetings 4, Valdarno, San Giovanni (from BLT video) 19/07/86 GMEX (from 'Rock Of Europe' TV programme) 04/10/86 Town & Country Club, London (from bootleg) 06/10/86 Royal Albert Hall, London (from State Of The Nation video and bootleg) 13/10/86 The Hacienda, Manchester (from State Of The Nation video and bootleg) 05/12/86 1018 Club, New York (from '120 Minutes' TV programme) 04/04/87 Brixton Academy, London (from 'Academy' video - would be nice to get this without all those crappy effects on it) 10/06/87 The Hacienda, Manchester (from bootleg) 19/06/87 Glastonbury Festival, Pilton (from True Faith video and bootleg) 25/08/87 Pier 84, New York (from bootleg) 05/09/87 Civic Centre, Pittsburgh (from 'Jerry Lewis Muscular Distrophy Labor Day Telethon' TV programme) 09/12/87 Mutualité, Paris (from 'Radio' / 'A2' TV programmes and bootleg)

Any others? If not, there's plenty to chose from in the list above (if, of course' these are mostly complete or 'release quality').

If two sets were released, it would be fun to include one of those gigs where the band played 'Substance' in order on that particular box set. Not sure if any of those gigs were filmed though.

Accompanying 12"s:

State Of The Nation Bizarre Love Triangle True Faith True Faith (Remix) Touched By The Hand Of God Blue Monday 1988

6 singles, which seems a lot. If they were split over two sets, I guess you'd go with the first two alongside 'Brotherhood' and the rest with 'Substance'.

Anyway, fun to speculate. And, who knows, one or two of our ideas might be taken on board by the powers that be.

Ooh, negzy lad may have a point afterall😄

Bit early in my op.

The only singles i associate with Brotherhood are BLT and State.

The singles i associate with the Substance period are True Faith and TBTHOG and at a push BM 88.

I really don't think it works having a definitive edition of Substance though.Leave it.So that'd mean having True Faith and TBHOG bundled in with the Brotherhood era. Could you associate TBTHOG in with Brotherhood? It was released around a whole year after. But Thieves Like Us was released a year after PCL and yet it was associated with that period for the PCL box. And TBTHOG's live debut was only a few months after Brotherhood's realease anyway.Where BM 88 would stand then is anybody's guess.Just leave it, i guess. I mean, the original was in with the PCL period. That's enough!

Anyway, trying to consider which singles belong with which period makes my head hurt. Leave it to the powers that be to figure it out.

Fotz wrote:

Anyway, trying to consider which singles belong with which period makes my head hurt. Leave it to the powers that be to figure it out.

It's a headache, for certain.

I'm really undecided myself, to be honest.

Lump 'em all together is my current thinking, but I might change my mind by next week.

Fotz wrote: Could you associate TBTHOG in with Brotherhood?

Well, considering Maradona's infamous 'hand of God' (*) occurred in the '86 World Cup, I reckon we can. :-)

(*) cross-reference to 'cheating'

If The Tube appearance March 86 is included in a Brotherhood box i'd hope for the full Broken Promise.Recall the credits started rolling half way through. I don't think they did any other songs after end of the broadcast but if they did, obvs would like to see. But i've never been aware of any other song that only the studio audience witnessed.

perspexorange wrote: Too early for this?

Yes.

Having said that, why not start a thread for a potential Substance one as well?

haha - i did wonder when this thread would show up!

If pushed I'd say they will reissue Substance on vinyl in some sort of special anniversary sleeve/coloured vinyl (like they did with UP and Still)

GotBlueEyes wrote: haha - i did wonder when this thread would show up!

If pushed I'd say they will reissue Substance on vinyl in some sort of special anniversary sleeve/coloured vinyl (like they did with UP and Still)

Every 12" in a boxed set? Or some take on the original concept of Tony wanting all the New Order singles for his cutting edge at the time in car cd player. The whole catalogue on a usb stick...

Andy wrote:

perspexorange wrote: Too early for this?

Yes.

Having said that, why not start a thread for a potential Substance one as well?

To be fair, the Low-life thread was actually started (not by me that time) on the day that PC&L was released. So, I think I was quite patient waiting four days this time.

As regards starting a new thread for 'Substance', I'll leave that for others. I don't want to get accused of spamming the boards...

Coming out of lurk mode long enough to comment.

There needs to be a deluxe/definitive edition of Substance. It's just as - if not more - important than any of their studio albums, and to this day is considered the definitive collection, even though it's been out of print for years.

Here in the States, it was most peoples' entry point to the band. Just because you don't want it or find it unnecessary doesn't mean the rest of us do. I want more content from my favorite band, not less.

None of the remastered 12" singles thus far have appeared on their respective box sets. They need to be gathered together in one place, on physical digital media, a.k.a. CD.

1. Substance double LP in embossed sleeve with the uncut version of The Perfect Kiss and the '87 re-recordings of Temptation and Confusion.

2. Single CD of the same, since timing would allow for including the unedited TPK.

3. Three additional CDs comprising every original mix (Temptation, Confusion), B-side, and remix from the 12" singles: (1) Ceremony to Confusion, (2) Thieves Like Us to Shellshock, and (3) State Of The Nation to True Faith.

That's one double LP and four CDs. That's a box.

Going forward, Touched By The Hand Of God and Blue Monday 88 would be rolled into the Technique box, which would then start including all the remixes on CD. Instead of 2 CDs per box it would bump uo to 4 or 5 - however many are needed to keep all the Factory years together.

The only alternative I can see is that once they've released a Technique box, they actually release Recycle as it was envisioned, as a box of 20 CDs, one for each single from Ceremony through World In Motion, in miniature replica sleeves, each including the various versions, edits, and remixes of their respective singles.

50poundnote wrote:

There needs to be a deluxe/definitive edition of Substance.

...

Just because you don't want it or find it unnecessary doesn't mean the rest of us do.

I don't think that anyone is arguing that a 'deluxe version' is not needed. In fact I outlined what I'd like to see and it isn't very different to your vision:

perspexorange wrote: Just vinyl and/or CDs with expanded track listing would be fine. Have all of the b-sides. Possibly add things like the original Temptation and Confusion 12"s, the original Ceremony, Confusion Dub '87 etc.

50poundnote wrote:

1. Substance double LP in embossed sleeve with the uncut version of The Perfect Kiss and the '87 re-recordings of Temptation and Confusion.

2. Single CD of the same, since timing would allow for including the unedited TPK.

3. Three additional CDs comprising every original mix (Temptation, Confusion), B-side, and remix from the 12" singles: (1) Ceremony to Confusion, (2) Thieves Like Us to Shellshock, and (3) State Of The Nation to True Faith.

That's one double LP and four CDs. That's a box.

I'm just saying that, if it followed the format of the other 'studio' LPs, there will be some overlap (the book and DVDs, for instance).

You haven't mentioned whether you'd like to see a book and DVD in a 'Substance' set. Would you? If so, what would you like them to cover?

The 'Definitive Editions' are, in my opinion, a record of the band in specific periods of their career. 'Era' box sets, if you like, with the books detailing the years in question and recording process of the songs of that era. 'Substance' crosses all of the previous periods, so it's just not the same (however important it is; it was my entry point to the band also).

I think we're probably arguing over the same thing. We both want to see an expanded 'Substance'. The only difference is, I just don't think it needs to follow exactly the same format as the 'studio LPs'. After all, it isn't one.

50poundnote wrote: I want more content from my favorite band, not less.

Agreed. Completely. I'll buy any format of 'Substance' when it comes out. It's important to me and I love the LP.

I suppose what concerns me is whether I'll ever get to hear some of the stuff in the archives, due to the the length of time these things take to put together. Prior to 'Low-life' it'd been over two years since the last box. I really appreciate the effort that goes into these things (including trying to get material 'passed' by two diametrically-opposed parties). Two years is probably a realistic timeframe for any set.

However, this means that, going by two years per set, we won't get to WFTSC until 2033. If 'Substance' was expanded to include a book and DVD, and shuffled in between on the release schedule, we're talking 2035 potentially.

That's a long way off. Long enough for, potentially, Warners etc. to pull the plug on releasing big box sets. I hope that's not the case but it's always possible (after all, we never got 'Rhino' expanded editions of 'Republic', 'Get Ready' and 'WFTSC').

It might be feasible to release a scaled back 'Substance' almost alongside one of the studio LPs. And by scaled back, I don't mean 'bare-bones'. Let's have the B-Sides and mixes from the period, in a lavish sleeve. Just no book, no DVDs and no 'previously unreleased' material that might cause 'sticking points' on the road to release. Everything would've been released at some point in the past, so might not cause too much consternation; it's just recycling old stuff, albeit in a remastered format.

If you think about it, 2027 might be a good year for it. 40th anniversary and all that. Going by the 'two year' gap mentioned above, this would be the likely year of release anyway, even if it was released as a 'Definitive' set with a book. This way, we might get both 'Technique' and an expanded 'Substance' in one year.

i've said before, and i'll say it again.

substance is not an album, and doesnt need to be shoehorned into this series.

if they want to do something with it afterwards, thats fine. but not in the middle of a sequence.

anyhow.

brotherhood would be the last boxset i would be interested in.

i actually saw them on this tour in the US. and some live shows, outtakes, and maybe some of the early versions of the tracks would be interesting to listen to. in the same format as the other ones.

i will say, that in the canadian, japanese and (as mentioned) UK releases of the cd's all included 'state of the nation' on them. but not on the LPs or cassette versions. and not on the US versions in any format.

so maybe a case could be made to include that along with the boxset.

and also of course the artwork fits in well, with the other single released. sure, throw in the true faith singles. but that should be it. blue monday 88 and touched by the hand of God are their own releases.

later -1

Radical idea for a Substance box would simply be to release it with the True Faith 12" and an 12' with the Substance cover that has Temptation 87 and Confusion 87 on one side and the Hurt edit and Confusion 87 dub on the other But have space in the box to put all the other 12" reissues from the deluxe campaigns (or to house your original 12"s if you have them)

This is why I suggested a Substance thread.

There are a lot of strong feelings for that collection and what goes on with its inevitable remaster (Collector's versus Definitive edition) is intertwined with what goes in the Brotherhood box. Less than a year separate the original releases.

If they base the accompanying 12" re-releases on the Brotherhood Collectors Edition bonus disc, we'll get State, Bizarre, True Faith True Faith Remix and Blue Monday 88 all with the Brotherhood set. Be good to finally get a digital single release of True Dub, after the wrong version was put on CD2 of Brotherhood two times in a row!

We've debated pros and cons of a Substance definitive several times, and I think Jonny said the band had been considering it. Given the time it takes to compile, plan and annotate the definitive album sets, maybe one alternative idea would be for a Substance remaster and re-release to fill the gap between Brotherhood and Technique. Don't give it the full boxed set treatment, just separate double LP (same tracks, edits and versions as 1987 LP including full, unedited Perfect Kiss 12"), and 3 x CD (same tracks, edits and versions as original double tape - with exception of including the full, unedited Perfect Kiss 12").

Be a great way to maintain the chronology of the Factory album releases, and keep it a distinct artefact to the other definitive album boxes. Not overly worried about additional bonus discs containing the other remixes, but would be happy with a definitive or "non-definitive" style re-release, either way!

Could mop up the as yet un-re-released 7" B-sides and edits with accompanying digital reissues of all the separate 7" singles on download and streaming platforms.

Also hoping the frequency of reissues will speed up a little. It was 18 months from Movement to PCL, then over two years until Low-Life. Adore these sets and the obvious effort and hard work that goes into releasing them, but fingers crossed for Brotherhood and those that follow to come out a bit sooner. One every 9 to 12 months would be ideal!

Loving the Low-life set. Has been on heavy rotation, particularly disc two, and will be working my way through one live set off the DVDs each weekend for a few weeks!

Mr Discography wrote:

Could mop up the as yet un-re-released 7" B-sides and edits with accompanying digital reissues of all the separate 7" singles on download and streaming platforms.

The main one for me was the Procession/EGG single not being included in the Movement era singles reissues. I know they stuck to the 12"s only, but surely they need the same treatment?

But back on topic - maybe we just rename this thread as the Brotherhood/Substance Definitive Editions until anyone from the band's camp says what the plan is. Can't discuss one without the other. As Andy points out - the timeline was pretty compressed

Low-life - May 1985 The Perfect Kiss - May 1985 Sub-Culture - October 1985 Shellshock - March 1986 (so that was 10 months after Low-life if we're looking at the precedents)

then

State Of The Nation - 15 September 1986 Brotherhood - 29 September 1986 Bizarre Love Triangle - November 1986

True Faith - July 1987 (10 months after Brotherhood...) Substance - August 1987 Touched By The Hand Of God - December 1987 Blue Monday 88 - April 1988

then

Fine Time - November 1988 Technique - January 1989 Round & Round - February 1989 Run - August 1989 World In Motion - May 1990

Then it becomes a bit easier to draw a line between all THAT and Republic!

Andy wrote: This is why I suggested a Substance thread.

There are a lot of strong feelings for that collection and what goes on with its inevitable remaster (Collector's versus Definitive edition) is intertwined with what goes in the Brotherhood box. Less than a year separate the original releases.

I said "inevitable" primarily due to it still holding the crown as their best selling release. I can't imagine they'll just leave it out of print. If the "True Faith" single, "Temptation" and "Confusion" re-recordings end up in the Brotherhood box, that shuts the case on a Definitive Substance. But I still think a Collector's Edition would be warrented, however that would look.

GotBlueEyes wrote:

The main one for me was the Procession/EGG single not being included in the Movement era singles reissues. I know they stuck to the 12"s only, but surely they need the same treatment?

Procession & Mesh did get the remastered treatment for the 1981-1982 EP (Nov 2014).

Never too early to start talking about the Brotherhood box for me given that other than Movement (with the Hurrah’s show as a 3-piece), it’s the collection I’ve personally been looking forward to the most.

1. Because it’s selfishly the first album I got to buy upon realease having gotten into them in late ‘85 or early ‘86 and it was also the first tour where I got to see them so I’ve always had a fondness for the album. (Plus there are some real gems on there All Day Long, Angel Dust, and Paradise are bangers).

And

2. There’s somewhat of a dearth of soundboards after the early-86 mini-tour (where over half the songs weren’t even performed), so if the format follows as it has then I’m interested to see what makes the DVD(s). Granted there are some great audience tapes from the ‘87 Australian tour but I would be interested to hear what is in the official archive as far as live material.

I definitely wouldn’t want it combined with the Substance era stuff. True Faith and TBTHOG from a musical and sleeve art standpoint definitely belong in the Substance era and not the Brotherhood tidy little bundle of the LP, SOTN and BLT.

That said, I do hope they do something with Substance, just maybe not in the “Definitive Edition Series”. I’ve always fancied a version that had all the full versions (unedited TPK and Shellshock) with all the b-sides from the original factory cassettes and maybe Perfect pit as well. Could be spread over 3Cds with TBHOG and Blue Monday ‘88 (plus their remixes and confusion ‘87 dub).

If you wanted to go the full box set treatment I’ve always thought the Irvine substance show would be great to include (I know there was a website back in the day that had pictures of a bunch of Rob Gretton “artifacts” and there was a copy pictured there. Dunno if it has ever circulated but it would be a great inclusion if it were up to snuff for release at all (maybe edit out the f*ggot intro to True Faith). And/or toss in the Academy video to this instead of Brotherhood since the setlist runs more like a greatest hits show than the Brotherhood tour anyway.

But if they did want to include it in this same series, there certainly seem to be plenty of songs from Substance that haven’t gotten any “writing session/demo” versions released. So far: EGG, Temptation, Confusion, In A Lonely Place, Lonesome Tonight, Shellshock, Hurt. Just depends of course in what is still out there that the band might deem worthy of release.

Anyway, look forward to receiving my LL box maybe someday in 2023 when the new order store finally ships it out. But that’s another post entirely

Johnny James wrote:

GotBlueEyes wrote:

The main one for me was the Procession/EGG single not being included in the Movement era singles reissues. I know they stuck to the 12"s only, but surely they need the same treatment?

Procession & Mesh did get the remastered treatment for the 1981-1982 EP (Nov 2014).

Wow - no idea how I missed that. Maybe because it was an RSD thing, so I wrote it off as standing no chance of getting a copy, but I have no memory of this being reissued on clear vinyl!

perspexorange wrote:

Fotz wrote: Could you associate TBTHOG in with Brotherhood?

Well, considering Maradona's infamous 'hand of God' (*) occurred in the '86 World Cup, I reckon we can. :-)

(*) cross-reference to 'cheating'

In my personal timeline, TBTHOG is a Brotherhood era single, as much as WIM is a Technique era single.

One suggestion for the 'True Faith' Remix 12" and digital reissue. It should have the tracklist of the Australian version, with 'Paradise (Remix)' instead of '1963'. This avoids duplicating '1963', which appeared on both main and remix 12" singles here in the UK.

Quick opinion on Substance. They couldn't get it right first time round so not much hope for next time. Imagine being a casual fan and getting Temptation 87 instead of the original.

tapebias wrote: Quick opinion on Substance. They couldn't get it right first time round so not much hope for next time. Imagine being a casual fan and getting Temptation 87 instead of the original.

Temptation 87 is the best version. Same with Confusion 87.

Mr Discography wrote:

tapebias wrote: Quick opinion on Substance. They couldn't get it right first time round so not much hope for next time. Imagine being a casual fan and getting Temptation 87 instead of the original.

Temptation 87 is the best version. Same with Confusion 87.

Maybe, but Substance isn't all the original versions. It could have included the 87 versions as extras somewhere along with the originals.

tapebias wrote:

Mr Discography wrote:

tapebias wrote: Quick opinion on Substance. They couldn't get it right first time round so not much hope for next time. Imagine being a casual fan and getting Temptation 87 instead of the original.

Temptation 87 is the best version. Same with Confusion 87.

Maybe, but Substance isn't all the original versions. It could have included the 87 versions as extras somewhere along with the originals.

I was one such casual fan in 1987, and loved Substance (still my favourite all time album). I knew from the sleeve notes that Temptation and Confusion were re-recordings, so then hunted down the original 12" releases, but I always thought the Substance versions were superior - as New Order explained it at the time, they wanted to record versions that were more representative of how the live arrangements sounded. Plus there were obvious limitations with the amount of music you could fit on two CDs, so it helped that the re-recordings were shorter than the original 12 inch versions. If Substance had included the original 12" versions, and the 87 re-recordings it would've needed to be three CDs/tapes instead of two. Substance was my route from a casual fan into tracking down those other great twelve inch singles.

As I explored their back catalogue more, I slowly realised that a few other Substance tracks weren't the original 12" versions (Perfect Kiss, Subculture, Shellshock and Hurt were all edited down slightly). Of those four, I actually think all but Perfect Kiss benefit from being a bit shorter. All of that contributes to what makes Substance my favourite album: New Order's first twelve singles, but in their best versions. And yeah, it may technically be a a mere compilation, but the time, place, and versions of the tracks selected, for me, make it transcend that status to an iconic Album. Hence why a CD reissue would be ideal if it was the same disc 1, but with the full Perfect Kiss 12" (effectively, the same versions as the Substance vinyl LP). Substance was always more than a collection of their first twelve 12" singles - which we can all compile playlists of for ourselves now easily anyway.

They definitely got it right first time round.

tapebias wrote:

Maybe, but Substance isn't all the original versions. It could have included the 87 versions as extras somewhere along with the originals.

To bring this around to TBTHOG being loosely tied into Substance, as we all know, the CD single was meant to contain the original Temptation 12” as a concession to not being on Substance. In true Factory fashion, they messed it up and put the 87 version on it instead.

(The cover also ties it up to True Faith and Substance with those colourised aspects of nature (shells, coral, flowers and leaves).

Andy wrote: This is why I suggested a Substance thread.

There are a lot of strong feelings for that collection and what goes on with its inevitable remaster (Collector's versus Definitive edition) is intertwined with what goes in the Brotherhood box. Less than a year separate the original releases.

I hate to sound like a broken vinyls (sic), but we obviously need a separate Substance thread (or you could just edit this one's title!)...

Mr Discography wrote:

tapebias wrote:

Mr Discography wrote:

tapebias wrote: Quick opinion on Substance. They couldn't get it right first time round so not much hope for next time. Imagine being a casual fan and getting Temptation 87 instead of the original.

Temptation 87 is the best version. Same with Confusion 87.

Maybe, but Substance isn't all the original versions. It could have included the 87 versions as extras somewhere along with the originals.

I was one such casual fan in 1987, and loved Substance (still my favourite all time album). I knew from the sleeve notes that Temptation and Confusion were re-recordings, so then hunted down the original 12" releases, but I always thought the Substance versions were superior - as New Order explained it at the time, they wanted to record versions that were more representative of how the live arrangements sounded. Plus there were obvious limitations with the amount of music you could fit on two CDs, so it helped that the re-recordings were shorter than the original 12 inch versions. If Substance had included the original 12" versions, and the 87 re-recordings it would've needed to be three CDs/tapes instead of two. Substance was my route from a casual fan into tracking down those other great twelve inch singles.

As I explored their back catalogue more, I slowly realised that a few other Substance tracks weren't the original 12" versions (Perfect Kiss, Subculture, Shellshock and Hurt were all edited down slightly). Of those four, I actually think all but Perfect Kiss benefit from being a bit shorter. All of that contributes to what makes Substance my favourite album: New Order's first twelve singles, but in their best versions. And yeah, it may technically be a a mere compilation, but the time, place, and versions of the tracks selected, for me, make it transcend that status to an iconic Album. Hence why a CD reissue would be ideal if it was the same disc 1, but with the full Perfect Kiss 12" (effectively, the same versions as the Substance vinyl LP). Substance was always more than a collection of their first twelve 12" singles - which we can all compile playlists of for ourselves now easily anyway.

They definitely got it right first time round.

"...edited down slightly."

You know better than that.

But I do agree that a remaster should duplicate the original tracklisting.

Bonus discs can round up all the full unedited versions along with "Confusion Dub 1987". As the Definitive Editions focus on unreleased tracks as opposed to mixes, the "Paradise Remix" should also be included here along with the "True Faith" mixes instead of in the Brotherhood box. I would argue that the "Touched by the Hand of God" and "Blue Monday 1988" mixes should be there as well, not pushed to Technique.

Substance tracks that are not the original 12" versions:

Ceremony [re-recorded] Temptation [re-recorded] Hurt [over a minute edited out] Confusion [re-recorded] The Perfect Kiss [around 40 seconds edited out] Sub-Culture [7" version instead, 2.5 minutes shorter] Shellshock [around 3 minutes edited out]

[Help me, somebody help me: Does somebody know offhand if they used the correct mix of "In a Lonely Place"?]

Andy wrote:

Sub-Culture [7" version instead, 2.5 minutes shorter]

It's not the 7" version, I don't think. I think it was a new edit.

7" was 3:28 Substance edit was 4:48

Just to confuse matters, there was also a Factory Benelux only remix at 4:58. I think that appeared on a 7" single in the FBN territories, but I could be wrong.

Andy wrote:

[Help me, somebody help me: Does somebody know offhand if they used the correct mix of "In a Lonely Place"?]

Hmm. Good question. I think the version on Substance is the version that was on later pressings of the 12", rather than the original. But don't hold me to that. Mr Discography is bound to know for sure.

perspexorange wrote:

Andy wrote:

Sub-Culture [7" version instead, 2.5 minutes shorter]

It's not the 7" version, I don't think. I think it was a new edit.

7" was 3:28 Substance edit was 4:48

Just to confuse matters, there was also a Factory Benelux only remix at 4:58. I think that appeared on a 7" single in the FBN territories, but I could be wrong.

Andy wrote:

[Help me, somebody help me: Does somebody know offhand if they used the correct mix of "In a Lonely Place"?]

Hmm. Good question. I think the version on Substance is the version that was on later pressings of the 12", rather than the original. But don't hold me to that. Mr Discography is bound to know for sure.

Correct on "Sub-Culture". Was thinking the 3.5 minute mix was only a promo/radio edit because the remix/edit that appeared on Substance was also a bonus cut on the U.S. "Sub-Culture" 12". Mispoke about it being the standard 7".

Andy wrote:

perspexorange wrote:

Andy wrote:

Sub-Culture [7" version instead, 2.5 minutes shorter]

It's not the 7" version, I don't think. I think it was a new edit.

7" was 3:28 Substance edit was 4:48

Just to confuse matters, there was also a Factory Benelux only remix at 4:58. I think that appeared on a 7" single in the FBN territories, but I could be wrong.

Andy wrote:

[Help me, somebody help me: Does somebody know offhand if they used the correct mix of "In a Lonely Place"?]

Hmm. Good question. I think the version on Substance is the version that was on later pressings of the 12", rather than the original. But don't hold me to that. Mr Discography is bound to know for sure.

Correct on "Sub-Culture". Was thinking the 3.5 minute mix was only a promo/radio edit because the remix/edit that appeared on Substance was also a bonus cut on the U.S. "Sub-Culture" 12". Mispoke about it being the standard 7".

The 3:26 Sub-culture was the 7" (that appears on 'Singles'). Substance edit is a unique shorter version of the 12". Not aware of it ever being released elsewhere - never heard of it being on a US 12". The Belgian 7 FAC 133 featured 'Sub-culture (Remix Edit)' (4:58), which is another unique edit, similar length to the Substance edit, but not the same.

'In A Lonely Place' on Substance is, in fact a slightly alternate take that never appeared (as far as I remember) on either of the two Ceremony 12" singles. This alternate version appeared elsewhere I think (Retro?), But was the correct version on both Ceremony reissues that came out with the Movement box.

I'd forgotten about this error with Substance, so yes, that'd be another one to correct with any reissue - by including the original version that came out on both twelve inches.

Since the colour of gray has been taken I wonder what color they will choose for this one. Maybe metallic blue?

Mike C. wrote: Since the colour of gray has been taken I wonder what color they will choose for this one. Maybe metallic blue?

Good point - I have no idea. I'd guess a purple-ish blue.

I was looking at the current vinyl reissue of Brotherhood and I hate what they did to the sleeve. The Definitive Box edition should restore the original metallic sleeve thank god

It baffled me why they changed the sleeve.

They made it look like a rippled piece of cloth, rather than the stamped piece of metal that it actually was. It made no sense. At least not to me.

Anyone know the reason why?

But, yeah, restore it to it's original design and make it the metallic version, as opposed to the standard 'matt' version. And my vote would be a dark blue colour for the box.

Any news / rumours of this box set , either timescales ( this year??) or of content?

I'm ready to buy

Col72 wrote: Any news / rumours of this box set , either timescales ( this year??) or of content?

I'm ready to buy

Not this year, that's the one thing I can say for sure.

Johnny James wrote:

Not this year, that's the one thing I can say for sure.

Thanks for the update, JJ.

How about the JD live set? Any news you could share? Is it likely to come out this year, format etc?

BUMP

Johnny, and word on when we can expect this? Any hints as to what it may contain?

50poundnote wrote: BUMP

Johnny, and word on when we can expect this? Any hints as to what it may contain?

There's not much I can say, but it's moving along.

Johnny James wrote: There's not much I can say, but it's moving along.

That's great to hear! It's not my favorite NO album, but it's the first one I bought as a new release, so it holds a special place in my heart.

The live versions were better than the album, especially All Day Long and Angel Dust. Can't wait to hear what live material ends up in the set.

I know it was technically the Substance tour, but the 8/25/1987 NYC gig that ended up as the Chapter III bootleg is my favorite NO gig. Would be thrilled if a soundboard of that exists, and shows up in the set.

The album that me in to New Order. Still love side A in particular

What's everyone's views on the boxsets so far? I've only got Movement which I got for a much reduced price - still think they are way overpriced and there is no need for a hardback book which could be smaller etc.

tapebias wrote: What's everyone's views on the boxsets so far? I've only got Movement which I got for a much reduced price - still think they are way overpriced and there is no need for a hardback book which could be smaller etc.

I've liked them a lot. On Movement i loved stuff like the Cargo demos and the Peppermint Lounge gig. The P,C&L one is beautiul. Great little details like the CD sleeve being an exact miniature replica of the vinyl sleeve complete with the die cut holes. Love stuff like the early writing session version of TLU.The remastered 12" singles that accompany sound really good.Strangely though, i didn't find the sound of the vinyl of the remastered album itself that great

The Low Life box was one i'd been looking forward to a lot.Really interesting to hear previously unreleased writing session recordings and demos.And another exact miniature replica CD sleeve. I find i only play the extras CD from that box though. I wasn't blown away with the DVDs.

I think the hardback books on all are essential to complete the package.

Would be good if the releases were a bit more freqeunt and could be sped up but i appreciate it takes a lot of time to get these sets together.

The boxes and remastered reissue 12"s have become the only music i buy physically these days. I haven't bought a regular vinyl album or CD for a long time.

I love them. They are things of beauty.

I will say though, that 'Movement' really hit it out of the park and I don't think that the other two sets have been quite as good (although still damn great).

'Movement' had the legendary Hurrah's gig, plus the Peppermint Lounge, which was just brilliant. Plus the Cargo demos were wonderful and the highlight for me. I regularly play those (probably more the LP versions).

As regards the others, 'PC&L' had some great DVD stuff (especially the 2 x Hac and Kilkenny gigs). 'Low Life' was a little light on 'new' video stuff, basically having 2 x gigs (Tokyo and Leuven) that were in common circulation, but it was really good to see full Toronto/Rotterdam footage.

Although I really liked the stuff on the CDs for the latter two sets, it was difficult to compare them to the Western Works/Cargo demos on 'Movement'. I have listened to them a few times, but don't find myself going back to them as much as 'Movement'. I think having vocals on demos makes them more interesting to me. I think JJ has commented that it is sometimes easier to get non-vocal demos approved by the band (Bernard?), but I would definitely love to hear vocal demos on the forthcoming sets.

I love the books. They complete the package and help to make the package live up to their 'definitive' titles. My only slight criticism of them is that I wish they had digital copies of the books included too. Due to their slight unwieldy nature, I haven't read them all fully yet. I do most of my reading at night in bed and you can't really get away with taking them to bed (without the wife kicking me out). I've thought about trying to scan the books for my personal consumption, but haven't got around to that yet.

perspexorange wrote: I will say though, that 'Movement' really hit it out of the park and I don't think that the other two sets have been quite as good (although still damn great).

Agreed. The FACt that the BBC 'Rock Around the Clock' feature is absent from the Low-Life DVDs still bothers me.

The Movement box is flawless, very complete with the demos and unseen videos.

Mr. Disco wrote:

perspexorange wrote: I will say though, that 'Movement' really hit it out of the park and I don't think that the other two sets have been quite as good (although still damn great).

Agreed. The FACt that the BBC 'Rock Around the Clock' feature is absent from the Low-Life DVDs still bothers me.

It has been lost from the BBC archives i think was the reason.It was no longer available. Many fans have old VHS copies i guess could have been used but i guess it's a licensing issue? I don't know how these things work.The video quality wouldn't have been great but would have been no worse than some of the live footage that did make it on to the Definitive box set DVDs ( great to see those of course) so go figure.

It's been nearly 15 months since the Low-life box, and 6 months since the deluxe edition of Substance. Any word on the Brotherhood box?

50poundnote wrote: It's been nearly 15 months since the Low-life box, and 6 months since the deluxe edition of Substance. Any word on the Brotherhood box?

Currently still on schedule for this year. Working hard to hit the deadlines.

Johnny James wrote: Currently still on schedule for this year. Working hard to hit the deadlines.

Great news, thank you! Just out of curiosity, has there been any discussion about how far the sets will go? Factory-only? Republic? All the way up to Music Complete?

50poundnote wrote:

Johnny James wrote: Currently still on schedule for this year. Working hard to hit the deadlines.

Great news, thank you! Just out of curiosity, has there been any discussion about how far the sets will go? Factory-only? Republic? All the way up to Music Complete?

I recall reading on here somewhere that the plan was to do up to a combined 'Waiting For The Sirens' Call' & 'Lost Sirens' set (guess because we already have a similar boxed set for 'Music Complete'). I wonder if the sets will get that far in the end though? I hope they do.

Johnny James wrote:

50poundnote wrote: It's been nearly 15 months since the Low-life box, and 6 months since the deluxe edition of Substance. Any word on the Brotherhood box?

Currently still on schedule for this year. Working hard to hit the deadlines.

Are you able to tell us how many DVDs will be in the Brotherhood set?

Johnny James, if you’re out there, any word on when this might be announced? Has there been any discussion on how far they’ll go, and if we could maybe speed them up? It’s not long until my record buying days are behind me.

A). keeping this near the top for JJ to see easily. B). wishing they do them all.

Finally, getting around to the DVDs for PC&L. When Barney introduced Stephen as Ian Curtis I was stunned, overjoyed and sad all at the same time. Of course there’s been many reports that the band feels like they didn’t really deal with his death, but obviously he continued to be on their minds. What a great gig to have, and that ending is unbeatable.

Ok, Johnny James - please update when you can. Thank you

I can't really say much, we're very close to delivering everything. Then it's off to production.

From this month's Classic Pop magazine. Stephen reveals most of the Brotherhood box contents:

Edit: perhaps not "most" of it...

Looks like a November release then so it can be included in people’s Christmas present lists.

Hope we don’t have to wait as long for the Technique box. I was 16 when Fine Time came out and saw the band live for the first time a few months later. A great time of life when I started to fully embrace the band!

Time seems to be speeding up the older I get and I’d like to enjoy these box sets whilst I still have my health!😂

Mr. Disco wrote: From this month's Classic Pop magazine. Stephen reveals most of the Brotherhood box contents:

Edit: perhaps not "most" of it...

Interesting about wanting to the the NO/PSB Unity tour in the UK. PSB have a "big announcement" on Radio 2 this morning to coincide with Neil's 70th birthday - wonder if that's what's being announced?

Good news! Thanks Mr D!

So... in other news: no plans for new music as New Order. Instead, a new book, a book of photos from Gillian, a sitcom script, The Other Two songs from 2010 are still good to go and Superhighways will also be reissued.

I'm game. Keep' em coming!

Mr. Disco wrote: no plans for new music as New Order.

Boo! Hiss!

A real shame.

Still, good news about the photo book (which sounds pretty cool) and the reissue.

Mr. Disco wrote: So... in other news: no plans for new music as New Order.

In your "Pet Sounds" screen shot, Stephen says "I feel embarrassed to say it but no there isn't any new music". But is that the same thing as no plans for new music as New Order?

Have I missed a statement saying there are "no plans"?

I would be very happy to stand corrected on this.

If they’re not going to work on new music, at least they’re involved in these reissues. It would be a shame if they were not. So despite no new music at least we are getting something new from them.

I’d rather this than them actually have new music that for whatever reason they refuse to release. Here’s looking at you, Robert Smith!!

Debaser wrote:

Mr. Disco wrote: So... in other news: no plans for new music as New Order.

In your "Pet Sounds" screen shot, Stephen says "I feel embarrassed to say it but no there isn't any new music". But is that the same thing as no plans for new music as New Order?

Have I missed a statement saying there are "no plans"?

Is the missing context here that they are talking about the Pet Shop Boys having a new album out and doing gigs, but Stephen is saying he's embarrassed to admit that they are doing a show but have no new music out?

I think if there were no plans whatsoever, he'd have phrased it differently. If anything I'd read it as an admission that they just haven't finished whatever new music they are working on

Just announced

More details

looks great...

and all the new muisc..

the bundle is what i'm getting...

https://usstore.neworder.com/en/new-order/brotherhood/brotherhood-deluxe-edition-1lp-2cd-2dvd/825646253104.html

CD1Brotherhood (2024 Remaster)ParadiseWeirdoAs It Is When It WasBroken PromiseWay of LifeBizarre Love TriangleAll Day LongAngel DustEvery Little CountsState of the Nation CD2ExtrasShellshock (AOR Version) *State Of The Nation (Japan Demo) *Paradise (Robert Racic Remix)As It Is When It Was (Japan Demo) *Broken Promise (Instrumental) *Bizarre Love Triangle (Stephen Hague 12” Remix) *All Day Long (Instrumental) *Evil DustEvery Little Counts (Full Length) *Salvation ThemeSkullcrusher (Full Length) *Touched By The Hand Of God (Salvation Version)Let's Go (Salvation Version)SputnikBlue Monday 1988 (Michael Johnson 12” Remix) *(* previously unreleased) DVD1Live at the Academy Brixton, 1987Bizarre Love TriangleThe Perfect KissCeremonyDreams Never EndLove VigilantesConfusionAge Of ConsentTemptationTV Appearances:Ceremony (BBC Northern Ireland – Channel One 1986)Love Will Tear Us Apart (BBC Northern Ireland – Channel One 1986)State Of The Nation (The Tube 1986)Broken Promise (The Tube 1986)True Faith (Top of the Pops 1987)Les Enfants du Rock, Rockline 1987Paradise (Les Enfants du Rock, Rockline 1987)Bizarre Love Triangle (Les Enfants du Rock, Rockline 1987)True Faith (The Roxy, 1987)Bizarre Love Triangle (11pm, 1987) Extra MaterialStephen’s Fly On The Wall Documentary 1985.Recording 'As It Is' and ‘Shame of the Nation’ at Denon Studios, Tokyo (May 1985). DVD2Live at the G-Mex, Manchester, 19/07/86.ElegiaShellshockParadiseBizarre Love TriangleWay Of LifeState Of The NationFace UpThe Perfect KissCeremonyTemptation Other Live Performances:True Faith (Glastonbury, 1987)Sister Ray (Glastonbury, 1987)Dreams Never End (San Giovanni, 1986)All Day Long (Pier 84, New York, 1987)  Angel Dust (Pier 84, New York, 1987)       Shellshock (Pier 84, New York, 1987)       Weirdo (Pier 84, New York, 1987)  True Faith (Rapido, Paris 1987)Touched By the Hand of God (G-Mex, Manchester, 1988)Every Little Counts (G-Mex, Manchester, 1988) VINYL LPBrotherhood (2024 Remaster) A1.     ParadiseA2.     WeirdoA3.     As It Is When It WasA4.     Broken PromiseA5.     Way of Life B1.     Bizarre Love TriangleB2.     All Day LongB3.     Angel DustB4.     Every Little Counts

later | || || | ne gative 1

Salvation in full

What is Shellshock AOR?

That's quite a tasty tracklisting. Can't wait. Observations...

• No idea what 'Shellshock (AOR Version)' means, but it's usually an abbreviation for Adult Oriented Rock, an 80s genre usually meaning soft-rock. I hope that's not what it means in this case..!
• Interesting to have the Robert Racic Remix of 'Paradise' on there for completion, as well as the 'Salvation' tracks - although it's missing the full-length 8-minute version of 'Touched By The Hand Of Dub' that was on the original soundtrack CD titled 'Touched By The Hand Of God (Remix)'
• 'Bizarre Love Triangle (Stephen Hague 12" Remix)' - now this one really excites me. I love some of his extended 12" mixes, such as 'Round & Round'. Assume this was done at the time of the 'Married To The Mob' soundtrack version in 1986/87 (essentially the '94 version on 'The Best Of', but with those lovely "do do, do do do do" ad libs after the first chorus). Amazing to learn they've been sitting on a Stephen Hague extended mix of this for so long..! Has to be the track I'm most looking forward to hearing. I wonder why they asked Stephen Hague to do two new versions - was there a plan to re-release it as a single around the time of 'Substance' maybe?
• 'Every Little Counts (Full Length)' - assume this will be the album version, but continuing after the vinyl scratch sound effect. Wonder how long it'll go on for?
• Interested to hear the full length 'Skullcrusher' too
• Also wonder what 'Blue Monday 1988 (Michael Johnson 12" Remix)' will sound like - perhaps just a variant of the 12" mix we're already familiar with?
• Hope the Brixton Academy set is the one without those interviews cutting in every so often (think there was one without, and one with on the 2 different VHS releases? Can't remember for sure)
• Can't wait to see Stephen's documentary too!
• 'True Faith (Glastonbury 1987)' - this was where the live footage in the 'True Faith' video came from. Wonder why there's not footage from the whole set included?
• 'True Faith (Rapido, Paris)' - if this is the version there was a brief clip of on the 'Rapido' TV show, I remember it sounding very good - hope it's the full song.
• Interesting that 'State Of The Nation' is on the CD, as with the original release - I wondered if the CD would end on 'Every Little Counts' this time to mirror the LP tracklisting, especially as the single is getting a seperate 12" and presumably digital release
• The official store states "Touched by the Hand of God was the third single from 1986’s Brotherhood" - it wasn't though, was it?! Particularly as it had 'True Faith' and 'Substance' in between 'Bizarre Love Triangle' and 'Touched By The Hand Of God', and the artwork had a similar look to 'True Faith'. I suppose it's a third 12" to accompany this box though, and the Salvation version (essentially the demo) probably dates from around this time. Plus is clears the slate ready for the 'Technique' box and accompanying single re-releases in another year or so.

I'm very excited about this, such a great tracklisting. As before I'll wait to order it from Amazon (just the boxed set - I've not been rebuying all the 12 inches as I already have the originals), as the shipping is usually quicker, and there may be a price drop prior to the release.

Great stuff!

P.S. Whos' going to be bold enough now to start the 'Mapping The Definitive Editions - Technique' thread.

Mr Discography wrote:

• Interested to hear the full length 'Skullcrusher' too

So the regular Skullcrusher will remain exclusive to the Salvation! soundtrack?

I've been trying to comment for an hour but the forum keeps rejecting my comment as SPAM. And it's doing my head in!!!

Jcp7 wrote: Salvation in full

What is Shellshock AOR?

Wondered if this is close to the "standard" version that appeared on the Pretty In Pink soundtrack, but never appeared on a Factory release? They might have meant OST (original soundtrack) instead of AOR (album-oriented rock)...or it could be a version mixed for the American market, i.e. turn up the guitars and downplay the synths?

WOW! A lot to unpack here and I'm going out tonight and tomorrow. More comments when I get time. Obviously, this looks amazing. A little bit of a shame that there's not more demos (I guess they can only release what's available), but the remixes sound good. Especially the unreleased ones.

Stoked to see GMEX '86!

50poundnote wrote:

Jcp7 wrote: Salvation in full

What is Shellshock AOR?

Wondered if this is close to the "standard" version that appeared on the Pretty In Pink soundtrack, but never appeared on a Factory release? They might have meant OST (original soundtrack) instead of AOR (album-oriented rock)...or it could be a version mixed for the American market, i.e. turn up the guitars and downplay the synths?

This was my thinking too. The 'Pretty In Pink' version (or similar), which happens to be my favourite version of the song. Hope so, but I'll certainly take a 'new' version too.

CD2 - 2 - State Of The Nation (Japan Demo) * CD2 - 4 - As It Is When It Was (Japan Demo) *

DVD1 - Recording 'As It Is' and ‘Shame of the Nation’ at Denon Studios, Tokyo (May 1985).

Presumably these are related. I remember reading in Dennis' book (I think) that these two tracks were recorded together. Wonder if the AIIWIW demo is the same as that murky bootleg that's been doing the rounds for decades. Will be nice to hear in decent quality. If it is, strange that State Of The Nation (or Shame Of The Nation as it was called back then) wasn't leaked, considering they're from the same session.

50poundnote wrote:

Jcp7 wrote: Salvation in full

What is Shellshock AOR?

Wondered if this is close to the "standard" version that appeared on the Pretty In Pink soundtrack, but never appeared on a Factory release? They might have meant OST (original soundtrack) instead of AOR (album-oriented rock)...or it could be a version mixed for the American market, i.e. turn up the guitars and downplay the synths?

Surely the former.

Johnny James - Hope you don't mind the questions, but are/were there no embryonic or demo forms of either "True Faith" or "1963" available?

Also, will either the sleeves for either the CD or LP have a metallic finish like the original FACD and FACT editions?

-Mike

JJ - any idea if the Pier 84 & GMEX '88 video clips are from the same source as the bootlegs that have been doing the rounds?

perspexorange wrote: JJ - any idea if the Pier 84 & GMEX '88 video clips are from the same source as the bootlegs that have been doing the rounds?

Speaking of the DVDs, New Order finally are to repay Echo & the Bunnymen for Stephen's (possible) appearance on their 1999 boxset, Crystal Days 1979-1999. Ian joined them for Ceremony at G-Mex 1986, and Stephen (or David Palmer) is credited in that box's liner notes with drums for some previously unreleased, circa 1986 studio sessions.

Great news.Quite a lot on there of interest for me, most of which folks have posted about already today so i won't repeat if i can help it.One thing i don't think i've seen any mention is will the clip of Broken Promises from The Tube be a full version ? Original airing was cut halfway through at the end of the broadcast.I'd assume it'll be a full version on the box set DVD.

Cool that stuff like G-Mex 1986 video will be on there, and also a couple of clips from G-MEX 88 too.Looking forward to seeing the Glastonbury 87 clips, Sister Ray especially.Oh and i don't think i'm familiar with thiis 11PM tv show that they did BLT on.That's something i've never seen.

Stephen Hague BLT 12" mix, wow, that'll be cool to hear.

Every Little Counts full length? Interesting!

Think i saw the clips of Ceremony and LWTUA , the BBC Northern Ireland ones for first time a year or two back but will be good to have.

I've touched on just a few things there but there's plenty more in the set i'm looking forwar to hearing and watching.

Pricey box though, yet again

Just keeping track of the pricing here, for my sanity. I know the cost of living has gone a bit nuts the past few years but I, for one have yet to have a pay rise 😕

These are the prices I paid on Amazon UK

December 2018 Movement Deluxe £90 (still available on Amazon at £90) October 2020 PCL Deluxe £90 (now available on Amazon at £80) November 2022 Lowlife Deluxe £120 (now available on Amazon at £93)

November 2024 Brotherhood on the official store is £160?!! Not listed on Amazon yet

Hmmm

although there's a decent amount of material on this.

i feel like there should have been at least another disc of tracks.

weren't there more cassette rehearsals, or early demos?

i'm sure there were more versions of 'bizarre love triangle', and quite a few touched by the hand of God versions that could have been used.

also there were definitely more blue monday 88 mixes, that were demos on cassette too.

1 let's go (nothing for me) 4:02 v, cd, cs 2 let's go (salvation) 3:42 v, cd, cs 3 let's go (extract) 2:01 cd

8 Touched by the Hand of God (12" arthur baker) 7:59 cd 9 touched by the hand of God (bias 2000) 6:46 cd

i'm sure there were some more edits of tracks also.

later | || |||| | | ne gative 1

Looks very interesting the addional tracks, DVD and hopefully a decent remaster which this album may really benefit from. the cost is really excessive though.

Also no large book this time around? Seems strange not to match the others

Jcp7 wrote:

What is Shellshock AOR?

Well that normally stands for Adult Oriented Rock. Is there a rock version of Shellshock? Lots of Bernard guitar on there perhaps?

So we've got NINE previously unreleased tracks on the second disc. That should be fun.

[Every Little Counts (Full Length) has me intrigued. Some people don't iike this track but I've always loved it - other than perhaps the pig/zoo lyric. Can't wait for this.

Blue Monday 1988 (Michael Johnson 12” Remix): have we not already heard this via one of those leaked cassette things? I used to have that cassette stuff on my hard drive but maybe I lost it when my last PC bit the dust... John "Tokes" Potoker did the A-side version of BM'88. Beach Buggy was the vocal-free mix by Michael Johnson on the B-side (depending on territory). So this is presumably similar to Beach Buggy but with vocals? I thought we might get some of the other BM88 'cassette' versions.

Bizarre Love Triangle (Stephen Hague 12” Remix) -why on earth didn't they put this on the other side of the Shep remix 12" at the time? Maybe it's crap? [EDIT:oh it probably didn't exist yet!]

PS: I wrote this post about 5 hours ago before Mr Discography's post #70 appeared (but the forum insisted it was SPAM) so y'know...similar comments from others in the mean time.

The Shadow wrote: Looks very interesting the addional tracks, DVD and hopefully a decent remaster which this album may really benefit from. the cost is really excessive though.

Also no large book this time around? Seems strange not to match the others

the image shows a book. wouldn't see why they didnt include it in the listng.

i really enjoy the books,

later ||| | || | | ne gative 1

Yeah the book features in the video ad as well so defo included, must be an error in the description.

Bizarre Love Triangle (Stephen Hague 12” Remix) -why on earth didn't they put this on the other side of the Shep remix 12" at the time? Maybe it's crap?

maybe we should be glad they're not include bizarre love triangle (armand van helden mix) on it.

NOW that would be strange. but of course they're not including any of the new mixes. the richard x one is quite good.

but stephen hagues versions is probably still pretty decent.

there were also: bizarre love triangle (single remix) 3:44 v, cd bizarre love triangle (threesome) 3:23 cd bizarre love triangle (extended edit) 4:58 v

which would have interesting also..

later || | |||| | ne gative 1

negative1 wrote:

but stephen hagues versions is probably still pretty decent.

Yeah I've gone back and edited my comment now, as I guess the Hague 12" mix didn't quite exist at the time of the original single release. Hooky might be pleased that this 12" version gets to see the light of day, as his bass has probably survived (Married To The Mob), unlike on the Shep mix.

We should probably post the video/tweet

[TWITTER]1831318233174925822[/TWITTER]

Been listening to XFM's Brotherhood 25th anniversary episode from 2011. A lot of great details in there I'd forgotten, such as the Japanese recording sessions were at the request of the record label, so the band could teach the Japanese producers their recording techniques.

perspexorange wrote: JJ - any idea if the Pier 84 & GMEX '88 video clips are from the same source as the bootlegs that have been doing the rounds?

Pier 84 is, I asked the taper for a transfer from the master. I then used the desk recording for the audio.

G-MEX '88 is filmed by crew from side stage.

steinomite wrote: Johnny James - Hope you don't mind the questions, but are/were there no embryonic or demo forms of either "True Faith" or "1963" available?

Also, will either the sleeves for either the CD or LP have a metallic finish like the original FACD and FACT editions?

-Mike

We are doing the metallic thing, and hopefully it will work better than it did originally (where it seemed to wear badly).

There were problems with the rehearsal/demos tapes this time. They need expensive and time consuming treatment to get anything off them. There wasn't time. We may yet do it for archiving purposes, but I'm not sure at this point.

50poundnote wrote:

Jcp7 wrote: Salvation in full

What is Shellshock AOR?

Wondered if this is close to the "standard" version that appeared on the Pretty In Pink soundtrack, but never appeared on a Factory release? They might have meant OST (original soundtrack) instead of AOR (album-oriented rock)...or it could be a version mixed for the American market, i.e. turn up the guitars and downplay the synths?

It's similar to the Pretty In Pink version, but a different edit, same running time weirdly. It also has the extra lines.

Excellent! Many thanks for the answers, JJ!

Debaser wrote:

Jcp7 wrote:

What is Shellshock AOR?

Well that normally stands for Adult Oriented Rock. Is there a rock version of Shellshock? Lots of Bernard guitar on there perhaps?

So we've got NINE previously unreleased tracks on the second disc. That should be fun.

[Every Little Counts (Full Length) has me intrigued. Some people don't iike this track but I've always loved it - other than perhaps the pig/zoo lyric. Can't wait for this.

Blue Monday 1988 (Michael Johnson 12” Remix): have we not already heard this via one of those leaked cassette things? I used to have that cassette stuff on my hard drive but maybe I lost it when my last PC bit the dust... John "Tokes" Potoker did the A-side version of BM'88. Beach Buggy was the vocal-free mix by Michael Johnson on the B-side (depending on territory). So this is presumably similar to Beach Buggy but with vocals? I thought we might get some of the other BM88 'cassette' versions.

Bizarre Love Triangle (Stephen Hague 12” Remix) -why on earth didn't they put this on the other side of the Shep remix 12" at the time? Maybe it's crap? [EDIT:oh it probably didn't exist yet!]

PS: I wrote this post about 5 hours ago before Mr Discography's post #70 appeared (but the forum insisted it was SPAM) so y'know...similar comments from others in the mean time.

I've always heard of AOR standing for Album Oriented Rock, as a radio programming format. Meaning not relient on singles charts. It morphed into "Classic Rock" as new rock music began losing its battle against more popular genres. I did google AOR and saw the other definitions, so there's no one right answer. But I am curious as to why this mix is referred to this way. Johnny says it's a "different edit", but is being coy about how it might actually sound different.

I could be wrong, but "Every Little Counts" (Full Length) may just be the standard version without the needle scratch ending.

Johnny James wrote:

50poundnote wrote:

Jcp7 wrote: Salvation in full

What is Shellshock AOR?

Wondered if this is close to the "standard" version that appeared on the Pretty In Pink soundtrack, but never appeared on a Factory release? They might have meant OST (original soundtrack) instead of AOR (album-oriented rock)...or it could be a version mixed for the American market, i.e. turn up the guitars and downplay the synths?

It's similar to the Pretty In Pink version, but a different edit, same running time weirdly. It also has the extra lines.

Thanks Mr Z. Can you tell us why "AOR", or will that become clear upon release?

Debaser wrote:

Johnny James wrote:

50poundnote wrote:

Jcp7 wrote: Salvation in full

What is Shellshock AOR?

Wondered if this is close to the "standard" version that appeared on the Pretty In Pink soundtrack, but never appeared on a Factory release? They might have meant OST (original soundtrack) instead of AOR (album-oriented rock)...or it could be a version mixed for the American market, i.e. turn up the guitars and downplay the synths?

It's similar to the Pretty In Pink version, but a different edit, same running time weirdly. It also has the extra lines.

Thanks Mr Z. Can you tell us why "AOR", or will that become clear upon release?

I don't think it'll ever become clearer, that was how it was labelled on the tape box. It is very similar to the PIP one.

Johnny James wrote:

steinomite wrote: Johnny James - Hope you don't mind the questions, but are/were there no embryonic or demo forms of either "True Faith" or "1963" available?

Also, will either the sleeves for either the CD or LP have a metallic finish like the original FACD and FACT editions?

-Mike

We are doing the metallic thing, and hopefully it will work better than it did originally (where it seemed to wear badly).

There were problems with the rehearsal/demos tapes this time. They need expensive and time consuming treatment to get anything off them. There wasn't time. We may yet do it for archiving purposes, but I'm not sure at this point.

thanks for the answers.

i hope that they may be available later on digitally or through some other means.

i would pay for them.

later | || | || || ne gative 1

Fotz wrote: Stephen Hague BLT 12" mix, wow, that'll be cool to hear.

negative1 wrote: stephen hagues versions is probably still pretty decent.

Reading about Hague's unreleased extended remix reminded me that back in the late 90s I used to do pub gigs with a female vocalist playing 80s and 90s synthpop and dance tracks. We used to do a version of 'Bizarre Love Triangle' loosely based on Stephen Hague's 'Married To The Mob' version. I actually created my own extended version of it as a bit of fun.

Here's a link to it on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tzdb5tcMLY4&list=PL--rSSPxOptfumKRuqjNCU_yt1wZSMAF6&index=7.

Be interesting to see how similar my extended version is to Stephen Hague's actual extended remix! Still can't believe they've been sitting on this version for 37 years! Or perhaps 30 years - if it was a mix made at the time of 'Bizarre Love Triange-94' for 'The Best Of'.

Mr Discography wrote:

Fotz wrote: Stephen Hague BLT 12" mix, wow, that'll be cool to hear.

negative1 wrote: stephen hagues versions is probably still pretty decent.

Reading about Hague's unreleased extended remix reminded me that back in the late 90s I used to do pub gigs with a female vocalist playing 80s and 90s synthpop and dance tracks. We used to do a version of 'Bizarre Love Triangle' loosely based on Stephen Hague's 'Married To The Mob' version. I actually created my own extended version of it as a bit of fun.

Here's a link to it on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tzdb5tcMLY4&list=PL--rSSPxOptfumKRuqjNCU_yt1wZSMAF6&index=7.

Be interesting to see how similar my extended version is to Stephen Hague's actual extended remix! Still can't believe they've been sitting on this version for 37 years! Or perhaps 30 years - if it was a mix made at the time of 'Bizarre Love Triange-94' for 'The Best Of'.

The link in my previous message was wrong. Should be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tzdb5tcMLY4&list=PL--rSSPxOptfumKRuqjNCU_yt1wZSMAF6.

A message for the Mods: it seems once I've edited a post, if I try to edit it a second time, I get a message "Your Message was rejected because it was detected as SPAM!" Any chance you can change this setting, as it's very frustrating when I just want to carry out a second edit?

Just a handful of comments regarding the CDs first:

Firstly, I'm really excited to hear the two demos. Especially the Shame one. As I mentioned before, I strongly suspect the AIIWIW one is the same as the murky bootleg that's available. Still, if it is, will be good to get a (much) better quality version.

Glad that a couple of the tracks that, in another reality, might've ended up on last year's Substance remaster; namely 'Paradise (Robert Racic Remix)' & 'Evil Dust' have been included. It is appreciated that these haven't been overlooked.

Love that the 'Salvation' tracks are getting an outing too. These are rather splendid tracks and far too good to be languishing on very rare releases. Cool that 'Skullcrusher' is extended. Wonder if 'Let's Go' is the version on the 'Salvation' LP or whether it's the different version from the 'Retro' set.

I agree with others in that 'Every Little Counts' will likely be the track without that skipping 'cold end'.

I look forward to hearing the AOR mix of Shellshock. I know it won't be much different from the PIP version, but that is my favourite mix of Shellshock. It has the extra verse and, unlike, the 12" version (the only other version with that verse), doesn't go on and on and on...

Similarly, the Stephen Hague mix of BLT is by far and away my favourite version. Those 'do do do-s' and the end 'twinkly' bits are sublime. I was pleased that the '94 version kept the latter but was disappointed it didn't retain the former. Will be great to get a hopefully similar, but extended version. In good quality too.

The two instrumentals should be good and I'm looking forward to hearing the Michael Johnson mix of Blue Monday 1988.

As regards the DVDs:

DVD1 will contain quite a bit of 'previously seen' stuff. Specifically 'The Tube', 'Les Enfants du Rock', 'TOTP', 'The Roxy' and (only recently seen by me) the 'Channel One' footage.

The Academy footage is also previously seen. Wonder if they've managed to get a version which doesn't have any of those horrible edits/effects that plagued the VHS release (JJ - can you confirm, please?).

Highlights for this disc will be the previously unseen stuff, i.e. the Steve documentary and that footage from Denon Studios. REALLY looking forward to this.

For me at least, most of the good stuff will be on DVD2.

That GMEX '86 footage (with McCulloch on Ceremony) is probably my most anticipated thing on the whole set.

Video of the Pier '84, Glastonbury '87 and GMEX '88 gigs have been available before on murky bootlegs. Will be nice to get better quality upgrades and (presumably) pro footage of the latter two gigs.

The 'True Faith' footage from 'Rapido' I do have, but in poor quality. So, again, nice to have an upgrade.

Lastly, San Giovanni. Didn't know this gig was filmed. Bonus!

Finally, I just want to say how pleased I am that this project is continuing.

So often, bands 'half arse' their 'deluxe' box sets or only do this for one or two of their LPs. For New Orde, there seems to be a definite plan to release every LP.

Also, I'm thrilled (and that's the correct word) that, on every set so far, there's been a whole host of unexpected (and brilliant) items.

Many thanks to JJ and others for their continuing efforts!

perspexorange wrote:

Wonder if 'Let's Go' is the version on the 'Salvation' LP or whether it's the different version from the 'Retro' set.

Interestingly, the actual version of 'Let's Go' that can be heard in the film is a different version to the one on the 'Salvation' soundtrack album. Wonder if that will ever surface?

Debaser wrote:

negative1 wrote:

but stephen hagues versions is probably still pretty decent.

We should probably post the video/tweet

[TWITTER]1831318233174925822[/TWITTER]

Thanks D. Looks a brief preview of some of the live video footage could be the G-Mex 1986 one? Looks great quality if it is and i'm really looking forward to the vid of that gig. I never made it to that Festival Of The 10th Summer but i do remember being aware of it at the time. Pondered attempting to go but i think it was a bit much financially for me at my then young age. I do wish i'd gone. New Order, The Smiths and The Fall, wow.

Looking forward to the book. Not seen it mentioned much in this thread except about whether there even is a book with this set. There IS.A few pages can be glimpsed in that promo clip and i'll be very interested to get my hands on it. Noticed around 37 seconds in there's a an image of a page in the book of an old tee that was around circa 86-87 and i did in fact own one back then. Long gone now though. This tee:

Oh it does state G-MEX 19/07/86 ,that brief preview video footage. Cool.

What is that 11pm tv show they did BLT on? I don't remember any tv show of that name so i'm presuming it was a foreign one?

Fotz wrote: What is that 11pm tv show they did BLT on? I don't remember any tv show of that name so i'm presuming it was a foreign one?

Could it be this?

^ Ah thanks Andy. I have seen that clip before, yes. But i thought it was the Les Enfants De Rock thing. So now i'm a little puzzled. 😕

Fotz wrote: What is that 11pm tv show they did BLT on? I don't remember any tv show of that name so i'm presuming it was a foreign one?

“11PM” is the now legendary late night Japanese TV program that was aired between 1965 and 1990. It was infamous for its risqué contents back in the day. Bit like Eurotrash, you know what I mean?

New Order appeared on the show on 26 January, 1987, the day before the first night of their second Japan tour, and performed BLT. Musicians who were invited to the show would normally lip-synch a la TOTP, but they turned down the request from the staff and insisted on playing live. The result was a rather shambolic performance, typical of them in those times, interrupted and cut short by a commercial. The whole event remains as a minor legend talked about among the New Order fandom in Japan to this day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgbfIpEQXrs

Thanks for the 11pm explanation, TJO.

Any idea which channel this aired on, please?

perspexorange wrote: Thanks for the 11pm explanation, TJO.

Any idea which channel this aired on, please?

Wiki

Andy wrote:

Wiki

Thanks Andy. I did try checking online, but drew a blank. You're obviously more thorough than me.

So, Nippon TV, by the looks of it.

The Japanese One wrote:

... interrupted and cut short by a commercial.

So, with that YouTube clip, it's quite likely that that's the whole thing, i.e. it isn't that the uploader only had a bit of the broadcast. It's that the broadcaster only showed part of the performance.

Still waiting for the 'Brotherhood' set to appear on Amazon here in the UK so I can (hopefully) take advantage of the price drop guarantee and get it cheaper than on the official site. Think past sets appeared pretty quickly after the announcement, but no sign yet - or on other stores. Maybe they're trying to maximise sales from the official store first?

Great that this announcement has woken this forum up a bit and given us something to talk about again!

perspexorange wrote:

Andy wrote:

Wiki

Thanks Andy. I did try checking online, but drew a blank. You're obviously more thorough than me.

So, Nippon TV, by the looks of it.

The Japanese One wrote:

... interrupted and cut short by a commercial.

So, with that YouTube clip, it's quite likely that that's the whole thing, i.e. it isn't that the uploader only had a bit of the broadcast. It's that the broadcaster only showed part of the performance.

Both correct.

perspexorange wrote: CD2 - 2 - State Of The Nation (Japan Demo) * CD2 - 4 - As It Is When It Was (Japan Demo) *

DVD1 - Recording 'As It Is' and ‘Shame of the Nation’ at Denon Studios, Tokyo (May 1985).

Presumably these are related. I remember reading in Dennis' book (I think) that these two tracks were recorded together. Wonder if the AIIWIW demo is the same as that murky bootleg that's been doing the rounds for decades. Will be nice to hear in decent quality. If it is, strange that State Of The Nation (or Shame Of The Nation as it was called back then) wasn't leaked, considering they're from the same session.

For your information:

I remember a short article published in a Japanese music journal reporting New Order’s Tokyo recordings in early May, 1985, that commenced right after they finished the concert tour over there. They were recording As It Is When It Was and Shame Of The Nation (as mentioned in the article).

To the reporter who visited the recording studio, Peter Hook gave a following comment;

“Ryuichi Sakamoto was to produce them, and we were looking forward to that, but we ended up doing the job by ourselves due to circumstances.”

A missed opportunity isn’t it?

The Japanese One wrote:

perspexorange wrote: CD2 - 2 - State Of The Nation (Japan Demo) * CD2 - 4 - As It Is When It Was (Japan Demo) *

DVD1 - Recording 'As It Is' and ‘Shame of the Nation’ at Denon Studios, Tokyo (May 1985).

Presumably these are related. I remember reading in Dennis' book (I think) that these two tracks were recorded together. Wonder if the AIIWIW demo is the same as that murky bootleg that's been doing the rounds for decades. Will be nice to hear in decent quality. If it is, strange that State Of The Nation (or Shame Of The Nation as it was called back then) wasn't leaked, considering they're from the same session.

For your information:

I remember a short article published in a Japanese music journal reporting New Order’s Tokyo recordings in early May, 1985, that commenced right after they finished the concert tour over there. They were recording As It Is When It Was and Shame Of The Nation (as mentioned in the article).

To the reporter who visited the recording studio, Peter Hook gave a following comment;

“Ryuichi Sakamoto was to produce them, and we were looking forward to that, but we ended up doing the job by ourselves due to circumstances.”

Great info! Ta! Am excited to hear the demos and see the footage.

The Japanese One wrote:

A missed opportunity isn’t it?

Very much so. That would've been very interesting to hear what he would've done to the songs.

Mr Discography wrote: Still waiting for the 'Brotherhood' set to appear on Amazon here in the UK so I can (hopefully) take advantage of the price drop guarantee

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0DFYRYSRQ

£157.99

If you have Amazon Prime free delivery it becomes even more of a no-brainer given that the shipping on the official site is another £5.99

Thanks. Have pre-ordered now to 'lock in' the lowest price. Did the same with the 12's too.

I think I will always order from Amazon in future, after the annoyance that the PC&L set (which I ordered from the NO store) didn't come with that 'obi' band. Ones from Amazon did.

Ordered the Low Life one from Amazon and got the band. Not sure if anyone who ordered LL from the NO store got the 'obi'. Can anyone confirm?

Michael Johnson remix of BM'88 available to listen to now on Nemone's show on BBC 6Music. The show is still live so if you wind it back to 11:42am (UK/irish time) you will find an intro to the track (and Box set) from Nemone + Peter Hook, then the tune at 11:43am.

What jumped out at me? Less overdub sample bits than other versions of BM 88. No 'funky' guitar either. Also Bernard's vocals. They sound a bit 'naked'. I may be wrong here but my understanding was that the 1995 version had new vocals recorded for it but the 1988 version used the original vocals. If these are the original vocals then they sound a bit soft without (all) the original effects from 1983 (there's still some vocoder in places), and without many of those '88 overdubs on top.

It is, I would suggest not particularly remarkable. The tone of the drums/percussion is familiar, so this mix sounds like a less "produced" version of BM'88 than we may be used to. A halfway house between '83 and '88. So yeah, I can see why it didn't make the original '88 release.

[TWITTER]1834148191249269228[/TWITTER]

If her show is over when you see this, I reckon it will be 1hr,12 mins in.

^ Thanks, D!

I'm pretty sure Bernard's vocal on that mix are NOT his original vocals as heard on the original 1983 Blue Monday. Yes they sound a bit 'naked' but also his pronunciation in places is different from the original, surely? Unless there were a few vocal takes done originally for the 83 original and a different take was used for this mix? His pronunciation on this mix is more akin to how he's sang it live over the years.

Yep, a lot less gimmicky sound effects/samples on this mix than the released 88 version.

Yep, definitely a different vocal take, and it has that Kraftwerk zap sound and rhythm that sounds like ‘Numbers’ running through it. It’s alright and that’s about it.

Production wise, the backing track is a less messy version of 'Beach Buggy', but with vocals (not the 83 or 95 take). 'Beach Buggy' had a slightly different beat to 'Blue Monday 1988' (the 16th not snare drum fill-ins are different to the 83 and 1988 single version).

Was also missing the second verse, but I wonder if it's been edited for broadcast on Radio 6.

thanks for posting the link for the preview.

i like that its less busy, and follows the vocals and sounds of the original more.

definitely a different vocal take. lots of subtle variations on the words and verses.

nice to hear another version.

later | | | | | || ne gative1

I imagine this vocal take is of the same vintage as the one later used on the Brain Mix in '95 (the one with the Sunkist verse). It sounds similar to my ears.

Andy wrote: I imagine this vocal take is of the same vintage as the one later used on the Brain Mix in '95 (the one with the Sunkist verse). It sounds similar to my ears.

So I was right about 6 Music playing a version of this that was edited for radio play. This has, more or less, the structure and beats of 'Beach Buggy', only minus the silly samples and with vocals added. It's like a vocal version of that dub.

Pretty decent.

Can't remember now, but did any of the other 95 remixes use the re-recorded vocals (apart from the Brain Mix)?

The Hardfloor ones had what seemed like quite laid back vocals so, without checking, I'm guessing they used them.

I seem to remember that the 95 remixes were, on the whole, pretty good (much like those Confusion remixes of the early noughties). But I haven't listened to them in years.

The opening lyrics are slightly different to the original 83 version & 88 remix and the same as Brain Mix - sounds like the same take was used.

!!!!!! Trainspotter Alert!!!!!!

Been scrubbing through the 95 remixes, just to check which ones used which vocals.

Hardfloor Remix/Radio Edit/Dub/Video Edit/Lakes Edit/DanceZone Level 6 Edit - 1988 re-recorded vocals

Andrea Mix - 1988 re-recorded vocals

Brain Mix (aka Corleone Mix) - 1988 re-recorded vocals

Starwash Mix - 1988 re-recorded vocals

Manuella Mix/Edit - 1988 re-recorded vocals (probably! Very few vocal samples and, whatever is there, has been put through effects)

Plutone Mix/Dub/Radio Edit - 1988 re-recorded vocals (I think!, based on what little vocal samples there are)

Hawtin Mix/'From Manchester With Love' Edit - No vocals

Phew! So pretty much all of them. Perhaps remixers were only supplied with the '88 vocals.

As you were…

I'm pretty sure all the vocal versions of 'Blue Monday 1988' featured the original 1983 vocals - with the exception of this newly released Michael Johnson Mix.

The 1995 Brain Mix has the lyrics from the aborted "Sunkist is the one" advert right at the end. Is it therefore possible that when they worked on that advert, a completely new vocal take for all of 'Blue Monday' was recorded, and that's the vocal track that was shared with remixers for the 1995 release (possibly in error) - and also appeared on this new 1988 version?

Does anyone know when they were working on that Sunkist advert? It's mentioned in NewOrderStory, so it must vahe been before 1993 - and given this new mix, possibly before 1988.

The Sunkist commercial is on YouTube. From the first syllable you can tell it's the same vocal as the Michael Johnson 12".

The Substance tour wrapped December 10, 1987, and apart from two dates in Italy in February '88, they're not on the road again until November. Blue Monday 1988 was released May 25th.

Substance was New Order's most successful album in the States (Billboard #36) up to that point, and like Depeche Mode, they were VERY popular in southern California. This is pure speculation on my part, but I'm thinking Quincy Jones realized they'd missed an opportunity to score a hit with the original Blue Monday, because it was released here via Rough Trade and not Qwest. He asked the band to let him remix or update it, similar to Temptation and Confusion on Substance, to be released as another single promoting Substance - or at least to keep some momentum going, since TBTHOG wasn't released here. The band headed to L.A. in March or April, to re-record vocals (for Quincy, and possibly for the Sunkist ad), and to film the video, because artist William Wegman was located in L.A. It charted at #68, and got a lot of exposure on MTV, so in that regard it was successful. It kept the band visible until Fine Time was released in November, and then Technique becomes their highest charting U.S. album until Republic.

I've heard three stories about this time:

1. I remember reading a comment on a YouTube upload of that 'advert' from NewOrderStory. The guy commenting said he worked for an advertising company, loved the band, and came up with the idea for the commercial. He tried to sell it to the band but, ultimately, they wouldn't do it. From all accounts, the video shown on NOS was just a 'mock up' and never intended for release (not sure if the advertising company did it or it was a later thing done by the producers of the documentary). After all, Hooky flips the bird in it, so not sanitary enough for a TV commercial, I wouldn't've thought.

2. The band re-recorded the vocals for the 1988 version, but Quincey/Potoker preferred the original vocals (too right!), so shelved the 1988 re-recorded vocals.

3. When the 95 remixes were commissioned, the vocals supplied to remixers included lines recorded for the Sunkist commercial. This was apparently an error and shouldn't've been included.

So, pure speculation on my part, but a possible timeline was:

a) Advertising company approached the band about the ad, who said they'd think about it. b) (Possibly unrelated) Band decided to get Jones/Potoker/Johnson to remix Blue Monday. c) Bernard recorded new vocals. As the advert was still a possibility at this point, they decided to record the vocals for that commercial at the same time. d) Quincey at al decided not to use the new vocals. e) Band (or Gretton, apparently) decided not to go through with the ad. f) Tapes containing new vocals and Sunkist vocals lurk in the vaults until 1993. g) Morley/Gretton etc. dig out the vocals to the ad for use in NewOrderStory and a 'mock up' video is created . h) Again, vocals are mothballed until 1995 when new remixes are commissioned. These may or may not have contained the Sunkist vocals which were then used in the Brain Remix (alternatively, of course, the remixer might just have sampled NewOrderStory).

Perhaps JJ can shed some light here.

perspexorange wrote: I've heard three stories about this time:

1. I remember reading a comment on a YouTube upload of that 'advert' from NewOrderStory. The guy commenting said he worked for an advertising company, loved the band, and came up with the idea for the commercial. He tried to sell it to the band but, ultimately, they wouldn't do it. From all accounts, the video shown on NOS was just a 'mock up' and never intended for release (not sure if the advertising company did it or it was a later thing done by the producers of the documentary). After all, Hooky flips the bird in it, so not sanitary enough for a TV commercial, I wouldn't've thought.

2. The band re-recorded the vocals for the 1988 version, but Quincey/Potoker preferred the original vocals (too right!), so shelved the 1988 re-recorded vocals.

3. When the 95 remixes were commissioned, the vocals supplied to remixers included lines recorded for the Sunkist commercial. This was apparently an error and shouldn't've been included.

So, pure speculation on my part, but a possible timeline was:

a) Advertising company approached the band about the ad, who said they'd think about it. b) (Possibly unrelated) Band decided to get Jones/Potoker/Johnson to remix Blue Monday. c) Bernard recorded new vocals. As the advert was still a possibility at this point, they decided to record the vocals for that commercial at the same time. d) Quincey at al decided not to use the new vocals. e) Band (or Gretton, apparently) decided not to go through with the ad. f) Tapes containing new vocals and Sunkist vocals lurk in the vaults until 1993. g) Morley/Gretton etc. dig out the vocals to the ad for use in NewOrderStory and a 'mock up' video is created . h) Again, vocals are mothballed until 1995 when new remixes are commissioned. These may or may not have contained the Sunkist vocals which were then used in the Brain Remix (alternatively, of course, the remixer might just have sampled NewOrderStory).

Perhaps JJ can shed some light here.

I think you've probably nailed the timeline here. Only thing not possible, is sampling from NewOrderStory - the technology didn't exist back then to isolate vocals from the music.

Agreed that what appears in NewOrderStory is just a "what if." Barney says he couldn't get through the singing because the lyrics were so corny, but at least one take with the Sunkist lyrics was completed because it shows up in the '95 remixes.

perspexorange wrote:

1. I remember reading a comment on a YouTube upload of that 'advert' from NewOrderStory. The guy commenting said he worked for an advertising company, loved the band, and came up with the idea for the commercial. He tried to sell it to the band but, ultimately, they wouldn't do it.

There was a YT comment from a guy who said he worked for the advertising agency. They tried to convince Sunkist to go ahead with the ad but ultumately Sunkist said no. I know officially NO claim that Rob told them not to do it, but that may not be the whole truth.

Found it. From the YT comments under this video:

Cary Raffle: I was the vp and manager of the Sunkist account at their ad agency when this demo was created I think twas 1988. I am still heart broken to this day that we could not get our client to use this music in their campaign. It wasn't about the money, they just had really conservative taste.

Where he says "client" he means Sunkist, not NO.

Debaser wrote:

Where he says "client" he means Sunkist, not NO.

Ah. Yeah, that makes sense. I think it's probably a good thing they didn't do it.

Thanks for finding the comment, D. Knew I wasn't imagining it.

Certainly seems then that the video was a mock up for NewOrderStory.

perspexorange wrote:

Debaser wrote:

Where he says "client" he means Sunkist, not NO.

Ah. Yeah, that makes sense. I think it's probably a good thing they didn't do it.

Thanks for finding the comment, D. Knew I wasn't imagining it.

Certainly seems then that the video was a mock up for NewOrderStory.

For a mock up, it sounds pretty good. I’m talking about the backing track here. It has a nice fat dubby sound, 100 times better than some of those woeful ‘95 remixes (excluding the Hardfloor Remix obvs). Had a quick listen of the Brain mix and was not impressed.

This is the kind of information I'd expect to read on the books that come within the box sets. Track by track, preferably.

Mr. Disco wrote: This is the kind of information I'd expect to read on the books that come within the box sets. Track by track, preferably.

Some great insight here...why I still love popping into NOOL :)

anyone know the story about 'evil dust'?

i first got it on this compilation cassette :

https://www.discogs.com/release/294296-Various-Funky-Alternatives-18-Exclusive-Techno-Remixes

which is actually an industrial music compilation..

then got it lp, and cd: https://www.discogs.com/release/55090-Various-Funky-Alternatives-Volume-1

finally of course, it came as an extra track on the true faith CDV: https://www.discogs.com/release/462979-New-Order-True-Faith

it's been on 20 other compilation cds since then..

====

was it going to be a single?

it would have been great.

very dark, sinister lyrics.

excellent musical parts, breakdowns sounds.

• the piano solo is amazing
• followed by the cool drum and synth solos
• the alarm bell leading in the strings
• the fuzzy guitar solo at the end.

the evil dust version has a 'harmonica' sound solo in it? or is it a melodica..

all in under 4 minutes.

it really needed a good extended mix.. however evil dust is mostly instrumental.. made my own mix.. but really need to try again...

-- next up .. was 'way of life' going to be a single in the US? there was a 12 inch promo... the album cut.

another one of my favorite songs from them.

later | || | | ne gative 1

I'm not sure on whether Angel/Evil Dust was ever considered for a single. It's good enough, I reckon (probably better than State Of The Nation; in my eyes, at least). I wonder whether the band/Factory thought it was too good to just put it out on that obscure 'Funky Alternatives' release, so stuck it on the True Faith CDV. They probably needed some incentive for people to buy that product, as I can't imagine many people would've bought it for the video (I don't think I've ever seen a CDV player!).

Incidentally, it might have helped sales if they'd identified that the True Faith (7 Inch) was actually an edit of the Shep Pettibone remix.
Again, the Blue Monday 1988 CDV was similarly mislabelled, with rare remixes on it. Typical Factory; fantastic care and attention to the design of the artwork, but completely half-arsed when it came to track listings. Gotta love 'em. :-)

On a simliar note, I was wondering about another curiousity from the 'Brotherhood' era:

Theme (hommage a la MGM).

First appearing here (credited to Be Music):

https://www.discogs.com/master/287446-Various-The-Quick-Neat-Job-Crépuscule-Collection-1

Then here (again, as Be Music):

https://www.discogs.com/master/273613-Various-Moving-Soundtracks-Volume-One

Third release (again, as Be Music):

https://www.discogs.com/master/11026-Various-Cool-As-Ice-The-Be-Music-Productions

Then, finally (for now, at least):

https://www.discogs.com/master/1129228-Various-New-Order-Presents-Be-Music

Interestingly, this last release was credited to Peter Hook, rather than BeMusic, and the name was given as 'Lavolta Lakota Theme'.

So, presumably, only Hooky was involved in this? No other band members? If so, that probably precluded it from getting a release on this box set. I know Hooky was involved in the live sound for Lavolta Lakota (featuring Dave Hicks from Revenge) and I seem to think I read somewhere that Hooky used this music as the band's 'walk on' music. Not sure how true this is though (I may have imagined it). Anyone know anything else about this obscure track?

negative1 wrote: anyone know the story about 'evil dust'? it really needed a good extended mix.. however evil dust is mostly instrumental.. made my own mix.. but really need to try again...

Here's an extended mix: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9bqficwSio

I did once own a copy in the 80s of the LP of that Funky Alternatives comp with Evil Dust on. Alas, no longer have it as i , stupidly, sold a load of vinyl many years ago. I do have the True Faith CDV with it on though. I never bothered with the Blue Monday 88 CDV despite constantly seeing it for sale in Record shops in late 80s and early 90s.

Mr Discography wrote:

negative1 wrote: anyone know the story about 'evil dust'? it really needed a good extended mix.. however evil dust is mostly instrumental.. made my own mix.. but really need to try again...

Here's an extended mix: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9bqficwSio

pretty average, they just put 1/2 of evil dust - then the album version - the 2nd half of evil dust at the end.

later || | || ne gative 1

Interestingly, this last release was credited to Peter Hook, rather than BeMusic, and the name was given as 'Lavolta Lakota Theme'.

So, presumably, only Hooky was involved in this? No other band members? If so, that probably precluded it from getting a release on this box set. I know Hooky was involved in the live sound for Lavolta Lakota (featuring Dave Hicks from Revenge) and I seem to think I read somewhere that Hooky used this music as the band's 'walk on' music. Not sure how true this is though (I may have imagined it). Anyone know anything else about this obscure track?

Here is a link to the song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zv0yozcJvL0

i understand keeping the Be Music tracks separate. Aside from them having recently been collected in the New Order Presents Be Music box, it would sort of be akin to including Revenge tracks in the Technique box.

Andy wrote: i understand keeping the Be Music tracks separate. Aside from them having recently been collected in the New Order Presents Be Music box, it would sort of be akin to including Revenge tracks in the Technique box.

I agree, almost.

It just depends on how many band members were involved, I guess.

After all, wasn’t the Xmas flexi credited to Be Music? And, although they weren’t particularly great, I don’t think there would’ve been much argument if they were included on a NO compilation. Disappointment maybe. 😉

So, I guess what I am saying is, if it was just Hooky, no inclusion on anything NO. If it was him plus Bernard etc., yes.

perspexorange wrote:

Andy wrote: i understand keeping the Be Music tracks separate. Aside from them having recently been collected in the New Order Presents Be Music box, it would sort of be akin to including Revenge tracks in the Technique box.

I agree, almost.

It just depends on how many band members were involved, I guess.

After all, wasn’t the Xmas flexi credited to Be Music? And, although they weren’t particularly great, I don’t think there would’ve been much argument if they were included on a NO compilation. Disappointment maybe. 😉

So, I guess what I am saying is, if it was just Hooky, no inclusion on anything NO. If it was him plus Bernard etc., yes.

Wonder how the Making Out tracks fit in. I think the first couple of series credited the music to New Order, but series three (when the production of the music changed slightly) was just The Other Two. I'd assume we'll get some of the series 1&2 tracks on the Technique set ('Vanishing Point' (Instrumenal Making Out Mix)' was on the 'Round & Round' single, after all.

Always wondered if Barney had any involvement in the Making Out tracks - it's certainly got Hooky on there.

This has just been posted:

Stunning! Absolutely brilliant. A legendary band at their very peak.

Subvulture wrote:

Here is a link to the song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zv0yozcJvL0

Thanks. yeah - I do know it, but it's only in recent years it's been labelled as 'Peter Hook' and 'Lavolta Lakota Theme'. Just wondered if this was the correct designation, as it hadn't been labelled like that previously.

Ta for that link to the newly released G-Mex 86 clip, perspex.

1986...wow. Such a very very different time.

Hooky has enough before the end and exits stage. Barney throws his guitar at the end . Not enough Gillian in that clip methinks. Andy Robinson gets a look in though.

Can't remember who headlined was it The Smiths or NO.

The could release the 7" version of Shame of the Nation digitally... for the sake of completeness

Mr. Disco wrote: The could release the 7" version of Shame of the Nation digitally... for the sake of completeness

...and the 7 inch edits of 'In A Lonely Place', 'Hurt', 'Lonesome Tonight', 'The Kiss Of Death', 'Dub-Vulture', 'Thieves Like Us Instrumental', 'Bizarre Dub Triangle', 'Beach Buggy' and 'Touched By The Hand Of Dub'!

I might be wrong on this, but I think I do have the 7" version of Touched by the Hand of Dub on the japanese CD-single?

Mr. Disco wrote: I might be wrong on this, but I think I do have the 7" version of Touched by the Hand of Dub on the japanese CD-single?

Yes, it's the "b-side" on the Japanese 3" CD single. I have it as well.

Andy wrote:

Mr. Disco wrote: I might be wrong on this, but I think I do have the 7" version of Touched by the Hand of Dub on the japanese CD-single?

Yes, it's the "b-side" on the Japanese 3" CD single. I have it as well.

Yup, I have it too. But it'd be great if they can comprehensively reissue all the 7" A and B sides as they have done with the 12" versions

Here it is, and it's got (some) Hooky bass on it. Unreleased 12" remix of the classic single 'Bizarre Love Triangle' produced by Stephen Hague.

Do do, do do do do...

New Order - Bizarre Love Triangle (Stephen Hague 12" Remix) [Official Video]

interesting, it starts of slow, and builds up.

the familiar stuff reminds more of the album version.

it could have been longer.

i think overall it is less energetic though, more rock oriented.

they made the right decision.

later ||| || | | | n egative 1

Fantastic.

Far, far better than the (quite dull) Pettibone mix, IMHO.

Shame it’s stayed under wraps for so long. Love those doo-doo-doos and that beautiful shimmering keyboard.

Like that bit where the vocal lines start off normal, but then switch to vocoder halfway through.

Yeah. Really, really good.

So this follows the classic Stephen Hague and 1980s 12" extended mix approach, with Stephen Hague's 'Married To The Mob' "single" version in the there, an extended instrumental passage at the start, a slightly extended bit in the middle, and different mix levels.

I like it, but 5:47 is a bit short for a 12" mix - could've done with some longer instrumental sections at the start and end. Also wish he'd have extended the instrumental sections between each verse and chorus back out to the length they are on the 'Brotherhood' version - they're possibly the finest part of the song, after all. Had hoped the 'Doo doo' section would have doubled in length too, but this is essentially a slightly longer version Of the 'Married To The Mob' and '94 versions. Ultimately, I prefer the Shep Pettibone 12" remix.

Also, those "school ground" sound effects at the start, middle and end are a bit odd - never noticed them on any other versions before.

Question for Johnny James. I've always wondered what the story was behind the Stephen Hague remix(es) and when they were made. Were they recorded at the time of 'Brotherhood', or commissioned specifically for 'Married To The Mob'? As there's a 12" remix, were they ever planning to release (or re-released) this version as a single? Was it solely Stephen Hague's work or were the band involved (was never 100% sure if it features a different vocal from Barney to the album version)?

What's the history of these versions? Cheers.

As a NO fan, it's interesting to hear this version.

As a DJ, I wouldn't have spun it. Hague used the kick pattern from the original song, instead of a good solid four on the floor which a remix needs. It's also got the snare mixed louder than the kick, which robs it of a lot of power. I love what he did with the sequencer lines, though.

As much as I love these Hague mixes -- specially the edited(?) one from the Married to the Mob soundtrack, which sounds perfect to my ears -- I can totally get why they chose to go with the much harder beat of Pettibone back in 1986 (and yes, I was 11yo and wouldn't know about New Order for another two years). BLT is probably when the band perfected their """"pop"""formula, and the soundtrack version has the perfect length, leaving the listener wanting more. Now we've got more, and somehow the shorter version still surpasses it

I suppose it wasn't "trendy" to release different singles featuring remixes of the same track back then.

Interesting to hear but yeah, what's with the kids in the school playground noises?

Nothing will beat the original album version

lee wrote: Nothing will beat the original album version

I love that version, but the shorter Hague version from Married To The Mob is my favourite.

The Pettibone mixes never really did anything for me.

The best version is the Hemel Hempstead live approx Nov 85. I think I picked up this tape a month later so knew they were onto better things after 3 poor singles (IMO).

John Kennedy played the 'Married To The Mob' version of 'Bizarre Love Triangle' last night on his Radio X show (1:42 into the show at John Kennedy played the 'Married To The Mob' version of 'Bizarre Love Triangle' last night on his Radio X show (1h 42m into the show at https://www.globalplayer.com/catchup/radiox/uk/episodes/2zGpjiZvYuVHpE6Y3mcrsMbBUT/). That'll be the version I dug out my loft, scanned as a WAV and sent over to Johnny James as no one in the band or label had a copy!

Interesting that John Kennedy calls it the Stephen Hague 12" Mix, when it's clearly a shorter radio version! I expect this will get some airplay on 6 Music in coming weeks too. Obviously the label use shorter versions for radio promotion, as they did with the edited Michael Johnson 'Blue Monday 1988' 12" mix a few weeks back.

Mr Discography wrote: John Kennedy played the 'Married To The Mob' version of 'Bizarre Love Triangle' last night on his Radio X show ...(1h 42m into the show at https://www.globalplayer.com/catchup/radiox/uk/episodes/2zGpjiZvYuVHpE6Y3mcrsMbBUT/). That'll be the version I dug out my loft, scanned as a WAV and sent over to Johnny James as no one in the band or label had a copy!

Interesting that John Kennedy calls it the Stephen Hague 12" Mix, when it's clearly a shorter radio version!

So you reckon it was your rip from the Married To The Mob CD that got played last night?

You should have texted John Kennedy (and explained it's not the 12"). I used to be a regular listener circa 2005-10 and he was always good at reading out texts. Met him once too at Camden Barfly; nice chap.

Debaser wrote: So you reckon it was your rip from the Married To The Mob CD that got played last night?

You should have texted John Kennedy (and explained it's not the 12"). I used to be a regular listener circa 2005-10 and he was always good at reading out texts. Met him once too at Camden Barfly; nice chap.

Yep, it was my rip. Couldn't have texted in, as didn't listen to it until today on catch up.

Is it the same edit here?

https://www.discogs.com/release/100259-Various-The-Factory-Tape

I'm tired of these tags that never work!

Jcp7 wrote: Is it the same edit here?

https://www.discogs.com/release/100259-Various-The-Factory-Tape

I've never heard it, but the assumption is yes.

Mr Discography wrote: Yep, it was my rip. Couldn't have texted in, as didn't listen to it until today on catch up.

He's on again tonight. You could text him even if you're not listening.

Jcp7 wrote: I'm tired of these tags that never work!

When you had the image up on Discogs, right click it and open in a new tab. Then copy the URL from that new tab.

As far as I can remember, the Select tape mix is exactly the same as the one on the Married To The Mob soundtrack.

The other similar mix is the ‘94 one on ‘? (the best of) New Order’. It’s pretty much the same, with some slight variation, IIRC.

Jcp7 wrote: Is it the same edit here?

https://www.discogs.com/release/100259-Various-The-Factory-Tape

That's the same running time as my Married to the Mob CD.

Jcp7 wrote: Is it the same edit here?

https://www.discogs.com/release/100259-Various-The-Factory-Tape

I had that tape. Loved it.

https://www.facebook.com/watch?v=1258195788538060

Stephen doing the unboxing - good to see the metallic sleeve looks as nice and shiny as it should!

GotBlueEyes wrote: https://www.facebook.com/watch?v=1258195788538060

Stephen doing the unboxing - good to see the metallic sleeve looks as nice and shiny as it should!

Ah you've beaten me to it. You must have posted within about 4 minutes of the NO FB post.

Let's see if we can embed the Twitter/X post.

[TWITTER]1845887545437262161[/TWITTER]

What's the T Shirt?

EDIT: Oh it's Harmonia – Musik Von Harmonia

Looking good!

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Steve is just an absolute delight. Seems like the nicest guy you could ever want to meet.

Debaser wrote:

Weird that they are making a big deal of the Midi thing. In PH's autobiography, he says that Low-life was where they first adopted midi

The album (Low-Life) was recorded normally using a 24-track Studer tape machine and our own great collection of equipment, using pretty much the same stuff we used on Power, Corruption & Lies. The only big differences here were the adoption of MIDI technology and the use of SMPTE Timecode.

Likewise SM first mentions it after the technical problems at the 1984 BBC Live session just before Low-Life

Needless to say from that fateful day forward the Prophet sequencer’s days were numbered. There was this hot new thing called MIDI coming out that was today’s future. The answer to my prayers. Some of the more tedious ones anyway.

You won't be surprised to learn that Bernard doesn't mention midi at all in his book

It could be that they adopted MIDI for their instruments at the earlier time, but their use of computers as the MIDI controller came in later.

GotBlueEyes wrote:

Debaser wrote:

Weird that they are making a big deal of the Midi thing. In PH's autobiography, he says that Low-life was where they first adopted midi

The album (Low-Life) was recorded normally using a 24-track Studer tape machine and our own great collection of equipment, using pretty much the same stuff we used on Power, Corruption & Lies. The only big differences here were the adoption of MIDI technology and the use of SMPTE Timecode.

Likewise SM first mentions it after the technical problems at the 1984 BBC Live session just before Low-Life

Needless to say from that fateful day forward the Prophet sequencer’s days were numbered. There was this hot new thing called MIDI coming out that was today’s future. The answer to my prayers. Some of the more tedious ones anyway.

You won't be surprised to learn that Bernard doesn't mention midi at all in his book

After hearing Hooky recycling various JD/NO basslines for various Brotherhood songs, and the calamity that was to become Broken Promise, Bernard rushed to A1 Music in Manchester and bought the Yamaha QX1 sequencer and the rest is history. 😂

Mr Discography wrote: Question for Johnny James. I've always wondered what the story was behind the Stephen Hague remix(es) and when they were made. Were they recorded at the time of 'Brotherhood', or commissioned specifically for 'Married To The Mob'? As there's a 12" remix, were they ever planning to release (or re-released) this version as a single? Was it solely Stephen Hague's work or were the band involved (was never 100% sure if it features a different vocal from Barney to the album version)?

What's the history of these versions? Cheers.

Any feedback on the above question Johnny James?

Thanks

Mr Discography wrote:

Mr Discography wrote: Question for Johnny James. I've always wondered what the story was behind the Stephen Hague remix(es) and when they were made. Were they recorded at the time of 'Brotherhood', or commissioned specifically for 'Married To The Mob'? As there's a 12" remix, were they ever planning to release (or re-released) this version as a single? Was it solely Stephen Hague's work or were the band involved (was never 100% sure if it features a different vocal from Barney to the album version)?

What's the history of these versions? Cheers.

Any feedback on the above question Johnny James?

Thanks

I don't really know the details, except that the tape was dated 1988, so clearly separate to Brotherhood. It was probably done specifically for Married To The Mob.

Johnny James wrote:

I don't really know the details, except that the tape was dated 1988, so clearly separate to Brotherhood. It was probably done specifically for Married To The Mob.

Interesting, so after they first worked with Hague on 'True Faith/1963'.

Mr Discography wrote:

Johnny James wrote:

I don't really know the details, except that the tape was dated 1988, so clearly separate to Brotherhood. It was probably done specifically for Married To The Mob.

Interesting, so after they first worked with Hague on 'True Faith/1963'.

Wonder if there was a plan to re-release 'Bizarre Love Triangle ' using the Stephen Hague remixes as a follow-up single to support 'Substance' in 1988, maybe until 'Blue Monday 1988' came along? Definitely a question for Steve or Barney at some point!

Mr Discography wrote: Wonder if there was a plan to re-release 'Bizarre Love Triangle ' using the Stephen Hague remixes as a follow-up single to support 'Substance' in 1988, maybe until 'Blue Monday 1988' came along? Definitely a question for Steve or Barney at some point!

Married To The Mob came out a full year after Substance, and BLT was the single just prior to True Faith...on the other hand, Factory was hurting for money, so who knows.

I find it interesting that Stephen Hague was remixing U.K artists for American soundtracks 1987-1988, and producing U.K synth artists almost exclusively at that time.

50poundnote wrote:

Mr Discography wrote: Wonder if there was a plan to re-release 'Bizarre Love Triangle ' using the Stephen Hague remixes as a follow-up single to support 'Substance' in 1988, maybe until 'Blue Monday 1988' came along? Definitely a question for Steve or Barney at some point!

Married To The Mob came out a full year after Substance, and BLT was the single just prior to True Faith...on the other hand, Factory was hurting for money, so who knows.

Wouldn't have been the first time a song that wasn't a hit the first time got re-released for another attempt - particularly after the cult status the Shep 12" mix got in certain countries and clubs, and after the success of 'Substance'. Would love to know the real reason Stephen Hague got paid to make a new single version and 12" mix. Unlikely it was just for a soundtrack album when they could've reused the album or previous single version.

Mr Discography wrote: Would love to know the real reason Stephen Hague got paid to make a new single version and 12" mix. Unlikely it was just for a soundtrack album when they could've reused the album or previous single version.

Yep, This.

Mr Discography wrote:

Wonder if there was a plan to re-release 'Bizarre Love Triangle ' using the Stephen Hague remixes .... Definitely a question for Steve or Barney at some point!

The question needs to be asked (of Mr Morris, cos Bernard won't remember or care) during any upcoming promotion for the box set.

I'm satisfied with the answer from Johnny James, actually.

The band had a good relationship with the film's director, Jonathan Demme, and presubably Hague was happy to have a go at a chart friendly version after it's relatively disappointing '86 showing, especially after his success with "True Faith". Shep's remix that was so popular on the dance floors was a bit harsh to be radio friendly, especially in the U.S. I think the spoken word bit in the video (which I personally like) probably threw people off also.

Pretty decent. Nice Hooky bass at end.

Glad that we've finally had another demo that features vocals.

Although I've enjoyed the demos on the last two box sets, they have limited 'replay value' for me. I need vocals to be present to justify repeated listenings. Instrumental demos are more 'curios' to me..

I think we were just spoilt with those brilliant demos on the first LP.

Weirdly, the channel appears to have now posted the same song with a different background image an hour or so ago.

Although the first version is still playable, it doesn't appear in the list of videos for the channel.

perspexorange wrote: Weirdly, the channel appears to have now posted the same song with a different background image an hour or so ago.

Although the first version is still playable, it doesn't appear in the list of videos for the channel.

Interesting to see in the image of the master reel that there were 4 takes listed (one instrumental). I wonder if they were actually different full takes (ie live performances) or just the same track with different mixes

Most likely the former (else they would have listed them as mixes, not takes?), in which case I wonder how different they were?

GotBlueEyes wrote:

perspexorange wrote: Weirdly, the channel appears to have now posted the same song with a different background image an hour or so ago.

Although the first version is still playable, it doesn't appear in the list of videos for the channel.

Interesting to see in the image of the master reel that there were 4 takes listed (one instrumental). I wonder if they were actually different full takes (ie live performances) or just the same track with different mixes

Most likely the former (else they would have listed them as mixes, not takes?), in which case I wonder how different they were?

really enjoying the demo.. but yeah, if there were other takes, would want to hear those also.

later | || | ne gative1

Just over a week to release can’t wait - can I echo “perspexorange” thanks, to the people have been involved in these Boxsets, very much appreciated without these it would have been fairly quiet in the forum these last few years.

The overall beauty of the boxsets are the main reason for buying but the CD extras is also the main bonus I look forward to. There looks to be some great stuff on Brotherhood and most tracks look like they will be worth listening too over and over (unlike some of them demos as others have said). However as usual it leaves you wanting more:

Let’s Go - I would have thought across Brotherhood & Lowlife we’d have a definitive collection for this track

BLT - vocal demo with extra lines / alternative lyrics (obviously didn’t do a demo for this one - could the live version have been used?)

Would have loved to have some demo’s of WOL and Weirdo!

It would be a shame if the fans never get to hear some of the other rehearsal ./ demos tapes but appreciate the expense / time these would consume.

Couple of questions:

Would anyone be able to share the ‘XFM's Brotherhood 25th anniversary episode’ with me please, would love to have another listen before the release.

Record and CD sleeve look’s like a simple metalised board - was the original version the same or was it more of an actual metal?

Like No Other wrote:

Would anyone be able to share the ‘XFM's Brotherhood 25th anniversary episode’ with me please, would love to have another listen before the release.

Pretty sure I have this. Give me until tomorrow night and I’ll dig it out (unless someone gets to it before me).

Really glad there are others enjoying these releases. Really looking forward to this set. Also, it’s ‘Technique’ on the horizon, which is my favourite LP by any band. Cannot wait.

Only just got round yesterday to preorder the box and BLT 12" ( my orginal 1986 copy long gone). Through Amazon but i won't receive til 26th Nov apparently. Maybe because i've left it late?

perspexorange wrote:

Like No Other wrote:

Would anyone be able to share the ‘XFM's Brotherhood 25th anniversary episode’ with me please, would love to have another listen before the release.

Pretty sure I have this. Give me until tomorrow night and I’ll dig it out (unless someone gets to it before me).

Here you go:

https://we.tl/t-ntvUApyPTd

Link probably good for seven days.

Fotz wrote: Only just got round yesterday to preorder the box and BLT 12" ( my orginal 1986 copy long gone). Through Amazon but i won't receive til 26th Nov apparently. Maybe because i've left it late?

yes, i've just ordered it also.

although, there were 2 stores, walmart and somewhere else selling it for $110 i think.

however, i went with the store, because i got all three 12 inch singles, and saved on shipping. no t shirt this time around or posters, oh well.

lets see if it gets here on time or not.

later || | | | ne gative 1

Interesting Broken Promise and Paradise instrumental variations.

Edit: Looks like Andy posted this in the social media thread first. My bad.

perspexorange wrote:

Interesting Broken Promise and Paradise instrumental variations.

Edit: Looks like Andy posted this in the social media thread first. My bad.

It's better than neither of us posting. I'm not always sure where these things belong.

perspexorange wrote:

perspexorange wrote:

Like No Other wrote:

Would anyone be able to share the ‘XFM's Brotherhood 25th anniversary episode’ with me please, would love to have another listen before the release.

Pretty sure I have this. Give me until tomorrow night and I’ll dig it out (unless someone gets to it before me).

Here you go:

https://we.tl/t-ntvUApyPTd

Link probably good for seven days.

Thanks so much, look forward to listening to this!

Hmm, well should this be in NO Spotting or here? In case we have members who don't bother with NO Spotting, maybe it's worth putting this here too. Hooky doing some Brotherhood promotion while the rest of them are gigging on Mexico. How nice of him!

[TWITTER]1858541410024116519[/TWITTER]

For people who are geo-blocked:

Hooky: "The box set has loads of extras on it". Then he mentions the Led Zep box set that "inspired" these box sets. "It sort of makes you sadder about the way we've ended up. We're in two camps and the record company has to dance between both..."

Craig Charles: "Do you think it [box sets] might lead to a thawing of relationships between the two sides?" Hooky "Eh, No...that divide is like the Grand Canyon + 25". "We weren't having a great time then, but we were working together... I am immensely proud of all the music...Me and Barney were jostling for position like two boxers...Me, Steve and Barney were still a great songwriting partnership". "it seemed quie obvious to split the tracks up (Electronic & Rock) ...very much the same way me and Barney were split". "When we (Pottsy & I) came to play the sequenced tracks live, they became my favourites!". Craig Charles: "Are you saying Barney was right then?" Hooky: "No! ...Get outta here!" Charles: "I heard you saying Barney was right!" Hooky: "I think he was right to split them (the tracks on Brotherhood), I don't think he was right that the band should be all electronic."

Re: State Of The Nation "We went to Japan: Press interviews by day...recording by night for five days..." "We were recording at night, the engineeers in the studio were falling asleep on the desk...We taught them a few things. The studio they had 'ripped off' was a Californian studio (Eagles), it was very dead, it wasn't very live sounding. We did the drums in the stairwell...we soldiered on and we did get AIIWIW and SOTN finished".

The SOTN demo gets a play and then they discuss PH&TL, and Jack playing with the Pumpkins.

Listening to the SOTN demo again here, I find myself agreeing with you Perspex:

perspexorange wrote: Pretty decent. Nice Hooky bass at end.

Debaser wrote: For people who are geo-blocked:

"Me, Steve and Barney were still a great songwriting partnership".

I find this upsetting. Writing Gillian out of the history of the band.

Obviously, I don't know what happened during the writing of this LP or others. Maybe Gillian didn't have too much input; or maybe she contributed loads. Who knows? Certainly not me.

However, one thing I've always loved about the band is the fact that all four names appear on the writing credits.

It's natural that certain songs will have had greater input from individual members from time to time. But, if you look at the New Order credits, you'd never know. Each member gets equally mention. It felt like they were all 'in it together'. A team. A group of close friends. A family even.

Now... I don't know what I think.

perspexorange wrote: I find this upsetting. Writing Gillian out of the history of the band.

As do I. Was it Retro Pop magazine that did a story about the recording of the True Faith /1963 single a few years back? Stephen Hague talked about how prepared Gillian was, that she had all her parts written out and was very professional. I also think about the clip from Girl In A Band where Gillian talks about Hook not knowing how to tune his own bass.

It's no wonder to me that the best album they've made since the '80s was Music Complete, and heralded Gillian's return. She's always been their secret weapon.

perspexorange wrote:

Debaser wrote: For people who are geo-blocked:

"Me, Steve and Barney were still a great songwriting partnership".

Obviously, I don't know what happened during the writing of this LP or others. Maybe Gillian didn't have too much input; or maybe she contributed loads. Who knows? Certainly not me.

Me neither. I agree with you on this.

We know from the Technique Demo tape that one of the tracks had a title of "Gillian's acc one". I seem to recall from the Technique twitter listening party, Gillian talked about getting her bits in when the others weren't in the studio. My understanding is that Avalanche on Republic was really an O2 track (correct me if I'm mistaken). And there was talk that Hook/Morris/Gilbert were coming up with stuff for Republic until Bernard came in and turned it all on its head - or something. And yes as £50 mentioned, Gillian had some keyboard parts ready to go for TF. But prior to 87/88?...

As far as I can tell, Gillian's input increased very slowly during her time with NO. I think even Tony said they brought Gillian in to "help out". I can't argue with what Hooky has said. After all he's talking about the three remaining members of Joy Division. Unless we think that JD were A) only good cos of Ian or B) not good at all, then it's not unreasonable to say that the remaining members of JD did have a "great songwriting partnership". As the band have pointed out themselves, you can hear them improving together over JD's short lifespan. I think they had an alachemy or a "magic" as JD, and it's not unfair to say the same about them when they changed name to NO. Did Gillian contribute much to Brotherhood's songwriting? We don't know. And because of that, I'm not upset by Hooky's comments. Although at the same time I'm aware that some of his past comments (pre-settlement) about Gillian were...less than generous.

perspexorange wrote:

I find this upsetting. Writing Gillian out of the history of the band.

I'm not as big a Depeche Mode fan as you Perspex, but I recall people saying that DM were lucky to have another songwriter (Martin Gore) waiting to take over when Vince Clarke left. Quite often a band only has one or maybe two songwriters. I think it's far more rare for all members to be equally adept. I think Bernard has made it clear in recent years that BLT is very much his baby.

Even Lennon & McCartney said that often one of them was actually the primary songwriter but they would put both of their names in the credits anyway. Here's Paul conjuring up Get Back (watch George yawning). John walks in near the end of the clip.

perspexorange wrote:

Now... I don't know what I think.

I think they're like every other band - not everything was equal in the songwriting. And y'know sometimes complete democracy on songwriting can be a bad thing. Songs with multiple writing credits are often quite bland or boring (see various boyband/girlband songs, or those collabs you get of various RnB and Hip Hop stars.) Too many cooks...

Debaser wrote: Although at the same time I'm aware that some of his past comments (pre-settlement) about Gillian were...less than generous.

I think this is the problem. It's difficult to separate statements like "Me, Steve and Barney were still a great songwriting partnership", which dismisses Gillian by omission, from previous statements which openly criticised her contributions. The words he choses here are deliberate and this isn't the first time he's said something similar.

You're correct in that there probably was one or two prime contributors to the song-writing tasks. However, none of us outsiders know exactly what anyone's contribution was from record to record. I just liked the fact that, previously, no one was elevated above the others. As far as we were concerned, at least officially, they were all equal songwriters.

I wish that Hooky had just said something like 'we were a great songwriting team'. He would be saying the same thing; just without criticising someone's contribution.

David Quantick review:

SuperDeluxeEdition.com

Amazon in the U.S. currently has it for $109.99, but the link is not easy to find...I got this from the Super Deluxe Edition website.

Brotherhood Definitive Edition

Andy wrote: David Quantick review:

SuperDeluxeEdition.com

Thanks for the link, Andy.

Crikey though! What a pointless review by Quantick. He just reviews the original LP and only mentions that there are bonus tracks as an afterthought.

Even more incredulous is that it’s a review for SuperDeluxeEdition, a website that is specifically about ‘expanded’ releases of classic LPs.

Anyone who is planning on buying this will know the LP intimately. What anyone will really want to know is what the bonus stuff is like and whether it’s worth shelling out 160 notes for. His only comment about this material is ‘enjoyable’.

Wouldn't be surprised if he didn't bother listening to the LP this time around and just posted his thoughts from memory. Any one of us, having not heard the Definitive Edition yet, could've written what he wrote based on our old knowledge of the LP.

Bah!

Here in France, my boxset has just been shipped (from the French FNAC website) Hope I will get it right in time for Friday !

perspexorange wrote:

Andy wrote: David Quantick review:

SuperDeluxeEdition.com

Thanks for the link, Andy.

Crikey though! What a pointless review by Quantick. He just reviews the original LP and only mentions that there are bonus tracks as an afterthought.

Even more incredulous is that it’s a review for SuperDeluxeEdition, a website that is specifically about ‘expanded’ releases of classic LPs.

Anyone who is planning on buying this will know the LP intimately. What anyone will really want to know is what the bonus stuff is like and whether it’s worth shelling out 160 notes for. His only comment about this material is ‘enjoyable’.

Wouldn't be surprised if he didn't bother listening to the LP this time around and just posted his thoughts from memory. Any one of us, having not heard the Definitive Edition yet, could've written what he wrote based on our old knowledge of the LP.

Bah!

Agreed.

I considered not posting it (he has several facts wrong) but as it was positive overall, I did. I also posted it on Bluesky, mentioning his inaccuracies, and he replied saying I neglected to mention his "great personal charm and beauty". I've since deleted it and reposted it due to a typo, but his original reply also had a typo (opinioons?)!

50poundnote wrote: Amazon in the U.S. currently has it for $109.99, but the link is not easy to find...I got this from the Super Deluxe Edition website.

Brotherhood Definitive Edition

I knew I was paying too much for the Brotherhood box at my local record store, SirenRecordMonterey.com, when I preordered. But my Low-Life box had a mixup (duplicate of one DVD, missing the other) when I ordered online. I want to be able to check the condition (and accuracy of the contents) this time around. Also, after sending off my Low-Life box for return, my purchase of a replacement at Siren included some promotional Low-Life-era style badges (apologies, I don't know how to upload a photo of them).

Yeah - I think it's definitely worth posting reviews on this thread.

It's just that my overall thought coming away from the review was 'did he actually play the bloody thing'?

It must be nice being a journalist. You get comp-ed beautiful box-sets and get paid to write the most rudimentary of reviews for them. I reckon he churned that out in 20 minutes, straight after getting the 'phone call asking that he write it.

Sorry guys - negative posts from me today. I must've got out of bed the wrong side today. Off to the pub in a bit, so that'll no doubt cheer me up. Ready for Friday and the chance for me to dive into the box's contents.

perspexorange wrote:

Debaser wrote: Although at the same time I'm aware that some of his past comments (pre-settlement) about Gillian were...less than generous.

I think this is the problem. It's difficult to separate statements like "Me, Steve and Barney were still a great songwriting partnership", which dismisses Gillian by omission, from previous statements which openly criticised her contributions. The words he choses here are deliberate and this isn't the first time he's said something similar.

You're correct in that there probably was one or two prime contributors to the song-writing tasks. However, none of us outsiders know exactly what anyone's contribution was from record to record. I just liked the fact that, previously, no one was elevated above the others. As far as we were concerned, at least officially, they were all equal songwriters.

I wish that Hooky had just said something like 'we were a great songwriting team'. He would be saying the same thing; just without criticising someone's contribution.

Interesting quotes from GG in the Women at Factory Records book saying she came up with the bassline for Love Vigilantes and also initiating the bass notes on synth for Age of Consent and PH asking what the notes were. (C&F)

Also a quote from Jane Robert's (PH roadie) saying don't let "shit for brains" get round the back of FX racks before going onstage due to his lack of expertise. Who would have thought.

Andy wrote:

I considered not posting it (he has several facts wrong) but as it was positive overall, I did. I also posted it on Bluesky, mentioning his inaccuracies, and he replied saying I neglected to mention his "great personal charm and beauty". I've since deleted it and reposted it due to a typo, but his original reply also had a typo (opinioons?)!

Nice of him to reply. My opinion is that you shouldn't have deleted due to the typo! We all make 'em, and apparently Quantick understood you.

I remember when Music Complete came out, The Quietus was one of the first to put a review online. Luke Turner used some of the 'demo' names for the tracks which were different when the album actually came out. I tweeted him to 'correct' the out of date titles. He did so later that day, but didn't acknowledge me at all. I suppose it could just be a coincidence that he correted the titles, but I @'d him on one or two other occasions and received no acknowledgement. He ain't that famous. So I reckon Turner is (probably) up his own arse. Only seems to reply to musicians or people he knows.

Andy wrote: my purchase of a replacement at Siren included some promotional Low-Life-era style badges (apologies, I don't know how to upload a photo of them).

It's a bit of a faff. But if you're curious, I think this is how: Upload your photo to a photo hosting website (Imgur spings to mind). Then it should offer you a weblink address for your pic. Then paste that link/address into the "insert image" button here, which is 6 buttons along from the bold button, (when you're typing a post). And that should be it.

BTW how is BlueSky? Have you dumped Twitter completely? I noticed the Guardian newspaper said they were moving the other day (along with plenty of others). I'm not convinced that a news organisation should do that. They could be on both...

Debaser wrote:

Andy wrote:

I considered not posting it (he has several facts wrong) but as it was positive overall, I did. I also posted it on Bluesky, mentioning his inaccuracies, and he replied saying I neglected to mention his "great personal charm and beauty". I've since deleted it and reposted it due to a typo, but his original reply also had a typo (opinioons?)!

Nice of him to reply. My opinion is that you shouldn't have deleted due to the typo! We all make 'em, and apparently Quantick understood you.

I remember when Music Complete came out, The Quietus was one of the first to put a review online. Luke Turner used some of the 'demo' names for the tracks which were different when the album actually came out. I tweeted him to 'correct' the out of date titles. He did so later that day, but didn't acknowledge me at all. I suppose it could just be a coincidence that he correted the titles, but I @'d him on one or two other occasions and received no acknowledgement. He ain't that famous. So I reckon Turner is (probably) up his own arse. Only seems to reply to musicians or people he knows.

Andy wrote: my purchase of a replacement at Siren included some promotional Low-Life-era style badges (apologies, I don't know how to upload a photo of them).

It's a bit of a faff. But if you're curious, I think this is how: Upload your photo to a photo hosting website (Imgur spings to mind). Then it should offer you a weblink address for your pic. Then paste that link/address into the "insert image" button here, which is 6 buttons along from the bold button, (when you're typing a post). And that should be it.

BTW how is BlueSky? Have you dumped Twitter completely? I noticed the Guardian newspaper said they were moving the other day (along with plenty of others). I'm not convinced that a news organisation should do that. They could be on both...

Yes, deleted Twitter. I went to Threads a few months ago but never took to it.

I'm liking Bluesky. The consensus is that it's like early Twitter back when it was good.

Quantick had reposted my now deleted comment, which is awkward. With my corrected post, I assured him he was the Kitten's Mittens. He then replied that I was "the hornet's cornet". I'll take it.

Debaser: I couldn't get the images of the Low-Life badges to appear. I posted the link to Imgur on the Low-Life Definitive Edition thread if anyone is curious.

I'm not convinced by Bluesky. A few friends have already had fairly tame comments removed that wouldn't happen on TwiX. Not that I particularly endorse Musk, but how many people watch Murdoch owned media?

Interview with Stephen:

https://www.brooklynvegan.com/new-orders-stephen-morris-talks-brotherhood-definitive-edition-music-videos-whats-next-more-bv-interview/

Mr. Disco wrote: Interview with Stephen:

https://www.brooklynvegan.com/new-orders-stephen-morris-talks-brotherhood-definitive-edition-music-videos-whats-next-more-bv-interview/

Nice interview and shout-out!

“It’s not just me. There’s lots of other people at Warner’s working on these. Also an uber-fan. It’s always good to have an uber-fan knocking about who can give you his or her opinion as to whether you’re right. You can never really tell. You might think “Oh, this sounds great” but they say, “It’s very common. Everybody’s got that one.” I’m open to ideas.”

Just received my copy this morning, one day before release, cool

perspexorange wrote:

Andy wrote: David Quantick review:

SuperDeluxeEdition.com

Thanks for the link, Andy.

Crikey though! What a pointless review by Quantick. He just reviews the original LP and only mentions that there are bonus tracks as an afterthought.

Even more incredulous is that it’s a review for SuperDeluxeEdition, a website that is specifically about ‘expanded’ releases of classic LPs.

Bah!

The guy that runs SDE is a bit of a tit (see his snarky reply in the comments to someone who dared to mention the lack of details about the "deluxe" elements of the release). He also routinely deletes/moderates out comments that don't just kiss his arse

Given that all of his links to Amazon are affiliate links, he must make a tidy sum from that alone. You'd hope he payed Quantick to write the review, and that is why he's being defensive

GotBlueEyes wrote:

The guy that runs SDE is a bit of a tit (see his snarky reply in the comments to someone who dared to mention the lack of details about the "deluxe" elements of the release). He also routinely deletes/moderates out comments that don't just kiss his arse

Given that all of his links to Amazon are affiliate links, he must make a tidy sum from that alone. You'd hope he payed Quantick to write the review, and that is why he's being defensive

Yeah - I've seen him getting arsey with other people.

The commenter was addressing the genuine concern that the review didn't actually review the product in question. Given that the website is dedicated to 'Super Deluxe Editions', it seems ludicrous that the review didn't touch on the actual contents of the set.

If I had to guess, the owner of the website asked Quantick to write a review of the product. Quantick half-arsed his review, only bothering to comment on the 1986 album itself (as well as incorrect 'facts'). The owner was probably a bit disappointed with what was produced but, having commissioned the review and technically out of pocket, decided to publish it anyway.

I guess it's still generating 'clicks' and, as you said, giving him money from the affiliates. So, as far as he's concerned, the review is a success.

It does make me wary to visit the site though, which I do from time to time. His snotty attitude to a valid concern will make sure I never click on any of the affiliate links.

In A Noisy Place wrote: Just received my copy this morning, one day before release, cool

Great stuff! Enjoy!

I'm looking forward to mine tomorrow.

Did it come with one of those wraparound 'obi'-style bands?

In A Noisy Place wrote: Just received my copy this morning, one day before release, cool

Whereabouts are you, and where did you order it from? I'm in UK, and Amazon haven't been so good at getting items to me on release date in recent months - even with Prime. My order currently says its due Tuesday, and all that Black Friday nonsense starts tomorrow - so worried it's not going to get to me tomorrow.

Hmmm.

Mine from Amazon also says Tuesday. For the box-set and the accompanying 12"s.

Well, that is disappointing.

perspexorange wrote: Hmmm.

Mine from Amazon also says Tuesday. For the box-set and the accompanying 12"s.

Well, that is disappointing.

If you ordered it today on Amazon, it says delivery would be on Thu 28th! Perhaps they're managing expectations due to Black Friday week.

Mr Discography wrote:

In A Noisy Place wrote: Just received my copy this morning, one day before release, cool

Whereabouts are you, and where did you order it from? I'm in UK, and Amazon haven't been so good at getting items to me on release date in recent months - even with Prime. My order currently says its due Tuesday, and all that Black Friday nonsense starts tomorrow - so worried it's not going to get to me tomorrow.

In France, FNAC delivers today. I've ordered on Amazon, and will receive it tomorrow (if Amazon do what they say in the mail I received today).

perspexorange wrote:

GotBlueEyes wrote:

The guy that runs SDE is a bit of a tit ...

... His snotty attitude to a valid concern will make sure I never click on any of the affiliate links.

Yeah f**k that guy!

perspexorange wrote:

In A Noisy Place wrote: Just received my copy this morning, one day before release, cool

Did it come with one of those wraparound 'obi'-style bands?

You are obsessed!

So what completely unheard gems do we still have to look forward to ? These ones?

Shellshock (AOR Version)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-26Ba2-dejM
As It Is When It Was (Japan Demo)   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reExTe0dZjo
Broken Promise (Instrumental)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfTbXiYCjAM
All Day Long (Instrumental)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6KJODVjp1w
Every Little Counts (Full Length) (can't find video)
Skullcrusher (Full Length)  (Can't find video)

That it?

The above videos will presumbly work after midnight tonight.

Debaser wrote:

perspexorange wrote:

In A Noisy Place wrote: Just received my copy this morning, one day before release, cool

Did it come with one of those wraparound 'obi'-style bands?

You are obsessed!

Completely!

I'm still bitter that my PC&L one didn't come with one. Ordered that one from the NO Store too. You'd think they would've definitely had the more 'complete' set.

In A Noisy Place wrote: Just received my copy this morning, one day before release, cool

Don't open it until midnight!

Somewhere in the world (New Zealand) it is already Friday, so the new Brotherhood audio is officially "out there". Which must be how I have found myself listening to it (ask me no questions, I'll tell you no lies).

First thoughts on the audio extras:

Shellshock (AOR version). Oh this is like the Pretty In Pink version! But slightly different here and there.

Johnny James wrote: It's similar to the Pretty In Pink version, but a different edit, same running time weirdly. It also has the extra lines.

Well you did tell us! It's fine, I would probably agree with Perspex's prediction (page 4 here): better than the 12".

As It Is When It Was (Japan demo). Well there are vocals on this demo. A different vocal take I think: no Bernard whoops and also no "oooh" at the very end. The vocal sounds lower in the mix at times. The mix overall is perhaps a bit less polished. Acoustic guitar higher in the mix. It's slightly shorter too: 3:30 instead of 3:45.

Broken Promise (instrumental). It is what it says on the tin. I think it would work quite well soundtracking some muddy car rally footage or "footballs toughest tackles", especially the second half of the track. Bernard's vocals on the original song aren't particularly great, so without the vox...it rocks! Same length as the original.

All Day Long (instrumental). Ever wanted to do Kareoke on this track? Now you can! But it's the ending that surprised me. The track is 5:33 long rather than 5:12. It doesn't fade out, instead it sort of breaks down to the "Wagner" strings and ends on a cold ending. And honestly, this is better! I LOVE this ending. I LOVE IT!! Maybe there were time constraints on the original album but really, THIS is how the track should have ended. Even more imperious than the original, but without the vocals. Now we need someone to splice the two versions together so we can have a longer vocal version.

Every Little Counts (Full length). Maybe a bit disappointing after the above. The discordant ending goes on and on, like a descent into hell - might be useful for a horror movie soundtrack. I can see why they cut this one short. Eventually the discordant stuff tails off and THEN we get the record scratch. It's still there. But I wanted it to come sooner. Hey ho...

Skullcrusher (full length). i listen to this tune so rarely and I care so little for it, that I'm not qualified to comment. Soz!

Mr. Disco wrote: Interview with Stephen:

https://www.brooklynvegan.com/new-orders-stephen-morris-talks-brotherhood-definitive-edition-music-videos-whats-next-more-bv-interview/

This was an excellent interview.

Interviewer really knew his stuff and Steve revealed a lot of info that I didn’t know.

Nice that he revealed why the Stephen Hague mix of BLT happened. Also, like the Shellshock/sewing machine anecdote.

Thanks for posting Mr. D!

perspexorange wrote:

GotBlueEyes wrote:

Shellshock (AOR Version)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-26Ba2-dejM
As It Is When It Was (Japan Demo)   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reExTe0dZjo
Broken Promise (Instrumental)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfTbXiYCjAM
All Day Long (Instrumental)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6KJODVjp1w
Every Little Counts (Full Length) (can't find video)
Skullcrusher (Full Length)  (Can't find video)

That it?

The above videos will presumbly work after midnight tonight.

the tracks are up...

shellshock - very familiar sounding, not too many differences that i noticed, its basically all the verses put into a shorter sounding edit

As It Is When It Was (Japan Demo) not that different from the original, but yes a different vocal on it, and few missing bernard sounds

Broken Promise (Instrumental) very short, brief, energetic version, a lot of the guitar solos stand out on it.

All Day Long (Instrumental)  a longer instrumental version as described, nice clean sounding keyboards, and bass

 Every Little Counts (Full Length) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZMwn83eCRg
just a longer ending..

Skullcrusher (Full Length)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6\_3uF-YLZI
again, slight differences, but not much

later || || ||| | ne gative 1

Mr Discography wrote:

perspexorange wrote: Hmmm.

Mine from Amazon also says Tuesday. For the box-set and the accompanying 12"s.

Well, that is disappointing.

If you ordered it today on Amazon, it says delivery would be on Thu 28th! Perhaps they're managing expectations due to Black Friday week.

Amazon still says arriving Tuesday, despite me pre-ordering weeks ago. If you ordered it there today, you wouldn't get it until 7 - 13 December, and Prime delivery is no longer available.

My guess is Amazon either have limited stock, or Warners have been slow getting their stock to them. I notice the price has dropped to £131.35, so we'll see if that gets reflected in that Price drop guarantee thing (perhaps not if today is officially the release day, and they only dropped the price today.

Damn annoying. Gotta find a more reliable UK record shop to order future boxed sets from.

perspexorange wrote: Did it come with one of those wraparound 'obi'-style bands?

No 'obi' (comes from the French FNAC website)

Mr Discography wrote:

In A Noisy Place wrote: Just received my copy this morning, one day before release, cool

Whereabouts are you, and where did you order it from? I'm in UK, and Amazon haven't been so good at getting items to me on release date in recent months - even with Prime. My order currently says it's due Tuesday, and all that Black Friday nonsense starts tomorrow - so worried it's not going to get to me tomorrow.

Ordered it (and live) in France at the FNAC website few days after the announcement. I'm lucky on this one. Unusual for me to receive preorders so early. Usually they are rather late (on Saturday or the week after...)

perspexorange wrote: Mine from Amazon also says Tuesday. For the box-set and the accompanying 12"s.

On the other hand, I ordered the 12's at Amazon France and had no news from them... expected delivery: 26 or 27 November (Tuesday or Wednesday)

Andy wrote:

In A Noisy Place wrote: Just received my copy this morning, one day before release, cool

Don't open it until midnight!

😄 Oops!

In A Noisy Place wrote:

perspexorange wrote: Did it come with one of those wraparound 'obi'-style bands?

No 'obi' (comes from the French FNAC website)

Thanks for letting me know. I'll assume that all editions are without an 'obi'. But, if I do get one, I'll update here.

Mr Discography wrote:

Mr Discography wrote:

perspexorange wrote: Hmmm.

Mine from Amazon also says Tuesday. For the box-set and the accompanying 12"s.

Well, that is disappointing.

If you ordered it today on Amazon, it says delivery would be on Thu 28th! Perhaps they're managing expectations due to Black Friday week.

Amazon still says arriving Tuesday, despite me pre-ordering weeks ago. If you ordered it there today, you wouldn't get it until 7 - 13 December, and Prime delivery is no longer available.

My guess is Amazon either have limited stock, or Warners have been slow getting their stock to them. I notice the price has dropped to £131.35, so we'll see if that gets reflected in that Price drop guarantee thing (perhaps not if today is officially the release day, and they only dropped the price today.

Damn annoying. Gotta find a more reliable UK record shop to order future boxed sets from.

This is pretty frustrating. Mine is still saying Tuesday for delivery. Half the reason for pre-ordering is to ensure you get one on release date (the other half is to 'lock in' that lowest price with Amazon), so I'm quite annoyed by this.

Although I'm not 8 years old and can wait a few more days without too many tears, I am off work today for one reason or another. So, it would've been nice if the box had arrived, as I would have plenty of time to dive into the contents.

I'll have to make do with streaming the audio tracks, but I'm really more interested in the video material and there's no legitimate way to watch these, I don't think.

Johnny James wrote:

Debaser wrote:

Johnny James wrote:

50poundnote wrote:

Jcp7 wrote: Salvation in full

What is Shellshock AOR?

Wondered if this is close to the "standard" version that appeared on the Pretty In Pink soundtrack, but never appeared on a Factory release? They might have meant OST (original soundtrack) instead of AOR (album-oriented rock)...or it could be a version mixed for the American market, i.e. turn up the guitars and downplay the synths?

It's similar to the Pretty In Pink version, but a different edit, same running time weirdly. It also has the extra lines.

Thanks Mr Z. Can you tell us why "AOR", or will that become clear upon release?

I don't think it'll ever become clearer, that was how it was labelled on the tape box. It is very similar to the PIP one.

JJ, would you have any more precise informations about Shellshock AOR ? I mean a recording date on the tape box ? in which studio was it recorded ?

In A Noisy Place wrote:

Johnny James wrote:

Debaser wrote:

Johnny James wrote:

50poundnote wrote:

Jcp7 wrote: Salvation in full

What is Shellshock AOR?

Wondered if this is close to the "standard" version that appeared on the Pretty In Pink soundtrack, but never appeared on a Factory release? They might have meant OST (original soundtrack) instead of AOR (album-oriented rock)...or it could be a version mixed for the American market, i.e. turn up the guitars and downplay the synths?

It's similar to the Pretty In Pink version, but a different edit, same running time weirdly. It also has the extra lines.

Thanks Mr Z. Can you tell us why "AOR", or will that become clear upon release?

I don't think it'll ever become clearer, that was how it was labelled on the tape box. It is very similar to the PIP one.

JJ, would you have any more precise informations about Shellshock AOR ? I mean a recording date on the tape box ? in which studio was it recorded ?

It's difficult to be precise, it was a US production master reel, so the where and when of the actual edit/production is not recorded. It was alongside the two US instrumental versions of Thieves (long and short). The reel was dated 12 Feb 1986.

Shell Shock was originally recorded in Stockport at Yellow Two.

Many thanks JJ for all yours interventions (and your work on the boxsets) which are very much appreciated here

Johnny James wrote:

It's difficult to be precise

Ah, there you are! I wondered if our Uber Fan would be keeping an eye on reactions. Thanks for staying involved.

A quickie I think:

There must have been a non-faded, cold ending version of All Day Long with vocals at some point - and then they decided to fade it. Did you come across the vocal version with the cold ending, and then have to make a choice between that and the instrumental for this box?

...Or was the vocal version on one of those knackered tapes?

Oh, and did Stephen or NO have any comments/memories on the choice to fade it out?

Johnny James wrote: It's difficult to be precise, it was a US production master reel, so the where and when of the actual edit/production is not recorded. It was alongside the two US instrumental versions of Thieves (long and short). The reel was dated 12 Feb 1986.

When we did Recycle we identified that the instrumental version of Thieves used in the film (and on the U.S. version of the 12") is a completely different mix than appeared on Murder in 1984 - we titled it Instrumental '86. It's 20 seconds shorter than the '84 version, and you can tell from the very first beats. The '84 version has reverb on the kick, and the '86 version starts dry. There are a lot of other differences, too.

There's also a short edit of the '86 mix for the Shellshock 7", so that would be the two mixes you found.

My copy not arriving til Wednesday 27th so it's listening to the extras on streaming for me today. Shellshock AOR sounds crisp and lively though the extra verse pops up in an unexpected place which was slightly disorienting!. Absolute loving the As It Is When It Was demo.Quite a very different sound and feel but fantastic. Some small differences in lyrics in one spot and i like Barney's backing vocals. Superb.

All Day Long instrumental is immense and beautiful. Barney's guitar in the early half of is kind of Velvets ish in it's simplicity. Had never picked up on that in the standard album version. Great synth flourishes towards cold stop end.

State demo i'd heard a week or two back, it's closer in feel to Shame i think.

Lovely to hear Salvation theme again, had been a while. Sounds fab.

Other stuff like Evil Dust, Paradise (Racic remix)and Touched (Salvation version)i'm long familiar with but good to hear.

That demo of As It Is When It Was will be the one i'll have on repeat a fair bit this weekend though.

I’m out at the moment, so will gather thoughts at a later date. However, just listened to virtually all of the bonus tracks on my AirPods while out on a walk.

I agree with Fotz that the AIIWIW demo is delightful. I’m pretty sure this is the same demo that was shared with fans going back to at least the late ‘80s

JJ - any idea if this is the same demo? Are you aware of the demo that was traded back in the day?

Not sure how that demo got leaked 35+ years ago. Curiously, it’s kind of surprising that the SOTN demo didn’t get leaked at the same time, considering it’s presumably from the same session.

Mr. Disco wrote: Interview with Stephen:

https://www.brooklynvegan.com/new-orders-stephen-morris-talks-brotherhood-definitive-edition-music-videos-whats-next-more-bv-interview/

Good interview. Many thanks for link. Yep that interviewer does certainly know his stuff. So much to discuss from it but i'll just pick up on the part where Steve talks about he never understood why Bizarre Love Triangle wasn't a massive hit in UK when it was released in 1986. Me too , Steve! Me too! I remember being really disappointed when it didn't even make the Top 40 if i recall. It's like it sunk without a trace with the masses in 1986 but nowadays is regarded as a NO classic and always goes down a storm at the gigs. I did hear the Pettibone 7" once or twice on the radio back in 1986 but it never grabbed the record buying public in the UK. I did have a theory back then that if it'd been released before the album instead of State Of The Nation it would have been a bigger hit but we'll never know. I first witnessed the popularity of Pettibone 's 12" remix when i was on holiday in Toronto, Canada in the early 2000s. It came on in a bar and the previously deserted dancefloor suddenly filled with people. I thought well this is interesting! I'd previously assumed no-one was familiar with it but apparently it was a very popular track in North America. UK masses just had no taste in the 80s, they were all obsessed with Bon Jovi circa 1986 eh?

BLT was a *club* hit in the U.S. but it only hit 98 on the Hot 100.

It did get shown on MTV, because that's where I first heard it. I was watching one late afternoon and was blown away by both the song and the video, to the point that I went and bought the cassette the next day. That's what really ignited my fandom.

I was never crazy about the 7" edit, and wonder if the album version might have fared better as a single...probably not, because there's no vocals over the kitchen sink outro (which I love).

Thankfully, it's now regarded as a stone-cold classic.

Mr Discography wrote:

Amazon still says arriving Tuesday, despite me pre-ordering weeks ago. If you ordered it there today, you wouldn't get it until 7 - 13 December, and Prime delivery is no longer available.

My guess is Amazon either have limited stock, or Warners have been slow getting their stock to them. I notice the price has dropped to £131.35, so we'll see if that gets reflected in that Price drop guarantee thing (perhaps not if today is officially the release day, and they only dropped the price today.

Just looked and it was £157.99 when I ordered it on Amazon the day it went on sale there. In my orders it's now showing as £139.26

But yes, the actual price today is now showing as £131.35 but that's a 3rd party seller "All Your Music" (hence no Prime delivery)

If you navigate to the Amazon listing it's £139.26, so it will still end up being 20 quid less than at order date

GotBlueEyes wrote: so it will still end up being 20 quid less than at order date

I hope so! The price of these (admittedly wonderful) sets just keep getting pricier. £135 will be much better than £159.

£24 better, in fact.

Thats three pints worth of good beer.

perspexorange wrote:

GotBlueEyes wrote: so it will still end up being 20 quid less than at order date

£24 better, in fact.

Thats three pints worth of good beer.

Yikes, £8 a pint? I don't go to pubs much but was £5 in Liverpool last month which was reasonable. Not buying this boxset means I can have another 27 pints which should take me til easter

I’m probably over-egging it a bit. But good beer costs £7-£7.50 a pint in these here parts. And about the same for 2/3rds of an even better beer.

But I digress…

Back on topic.

Really like the State Of The Nation demo. Those two Japan demos are the highlights for me (audio wise).

My word, that Every Little Counts ending is a bit BIG. Not that I dislike it, but I think they were wise to rein it in for the LP.

Can't find a cheaper price in Australia than Amazon Oz - $198 delivered vs $350 on Warners AUS! It's listed as a DVD though so maybe harder to find so here's the link: https://www.amazon.com.au/gp/product/B0DFYRYSRQ/ref=ppx\_yo\_dt\_b\_asin\_title\_o00\_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Oh right, thanks GotBlueEyes for heads up re Amazon price. It was £159 when i ordered but it now states i'll pay £139 when shipped. At least that's a bit cheaper. About 4 pints round my neck of the woods

Looks like Amazon have charged my card for the box set this morning (but not for the 12"s yet). The price they've charged is £139.26. It wouldn't surprise me if they issue me with a credit if the price has been below that since I pre-ordered. They've done that in the past.

As GotBlueEyes has pointed out, the cheapest price is £131 with 'allyourmusic' marketplace seller. Strangely enough, Amazon's own price has shot back up to £160 and won't deliver until 29/11/24. Whether this is because of limited stocks being received by Amazon or that they're trying to manage the obvious Black Friday rush on deliveries (while also trying to offset some of the lowered prices on other items for the sale). Weird.

PS I'm still feeling pretty annoyed that my box-set isn't here. Anyone else go theirs yet? What about people who've ordered from the official store?

^ Yes it is a bit annoying. If it wasn't for the fact that Amazon have dropped the price of my order from £159 to £139 i'd have cancelled it and jumped on a train over to Birmingham today and picked up a copy from the HMV Mega Store on Corporation Street.

Fotz wrote: ^ Yes it is a bit annoying. If it wasn't for the fact that Amazon have dropped the price of my order from £159 to £139 i'd have cancelled it and jumped on a train over to Birmingham today and picked up a copy from the HMV Mega Store on Corporation Street.

Yeah, same for me. It's bloody annoying. Have a quiet weekend planned (mostly due to the shite weather here in the UK) to get into the set. I ordered direct from Amazon (not any of the other sellers). I'm in the UK, and two record shops a short train journey away have it in stock. The Amazon tracking now says due Wednesday! It updated at 14:30 to say "Package arrived at an Amazon facility Gidy, Centre-Val de Loire FR" - WTF is it doing in France?!

It's shipped and I've now no way to cancel. If I could, I'd be off down to a record shop right now to buy it, even though it is more expensive!

I'm getting the next set from an independent record store.

Got mine today from Sister Ray. Came with an obi-strip. Still out and about so haven’t opened it yet..,

Pash wrote: Got mine today from Sister Ray. Came with an obi-strip. Still out and about so haven’t opened it yet..,

Mmmm…. obi strip…

Glad yours has arrived.

Would be interested in any views on the video material in the set.

Has to be less than £100 for me. I'll still have to deal with 100% of import taxes, unless someone who's travelling abroad would kindly get the box for me.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Brazil/comments/18w2r7n/why\_are\_import\_taxes\_in\_brazil\_so\_high/

NotAMod wrote: I popped into my local HMV today. No copies of the box-set nor the 12" singles. I even asked. Bit odd.

Had to navigate the literal shrines to Taylor Swift and K-Pop, which were generously stocked.

HMV has turned into part record store, part pick'n'mix these days.

It does make one wonder whether there has been a problem with Warners not getting stocks to retailers.

I picked up my preorder at Siren Records in Monterey. $150, but had the piece of mind that it would show on time and I would be able to check its condition. Sadly, no promo goodies this time.

I've opened it up to inspect the contents (Low-Life box had been shipped to me with a duplicate of one of the DVDs in place of the other) but haven't had the chance to enjoy it yet.

Johnny James wrote:

In A Noisy Place wrote:

Johnny James wrote:

Debaser wrote:

Johnny James wrote:

50poundnote wrote:

Jcp7 wrote: Salvation in full

What is Shellshock AOR?

Wondered if this is close to the "standard" version that appeared on the Pretty In Pink soundtrack, but never appeared on a Factory release? They might have meant OST (original soundtrack) instead of AOR (album-oriented rock)...or it could be a version mixed for the American market, i.e. turn up the guitars and downplay the synths?

It's similar to the Pretty In Pink version, but a different edit, same running time weirdly. It also has the extra lines.

Thanks Mr Z. Can you tell us why "AOR", or will that become clear upon release?

I don't think it'll ever become clearer, that was how it was labelled on the tape box. It is very similar to the PIP one.

JJ, would you have any more precise informations about Shellshock AOR ? I mean a recording date on the tape box ? in which studio was it recorded ?

It's difficult to be precise, it was a US production master reel, so the where and when of the actual edit/production is not recorded. It was alongside the two US instrumental versions of Thieves (long and short). The reel was dated 12 Feb 1986.

Shell Shock was originally recorded in Stockport at Yellow Two.

This is interesting. I was always under the impression New Order wrote the track with John Robie in the studio in the US Does this mean John Robie travelled to Manchester to record 'Shellshock' with the band, or is there another, unheard original version the band did prior to working with Robie?

The fact there's no comments in this thread yet about the live DVDs is a strong clue that very few people have received their physical sets yet. Guess most of us ordered from Amazon, so obviously that's a big part of the problem, but it's making me wonder if there are other distributions problems here thee and everywhere.

Mr Discography wrote: The fact there's no comments in this thread yet about the live DVDs is a strong clue that very few people have received their physical sets yet. Guess most of us ordered from Amazon, so obviously that's a big part of the problem, but it's making me wonder if there are other distributions problems here thee and everywhere.

Yeah - lord knows what is going on.

My Amazon order said "arriving Tuesday" on the release day, then that changed to "arriving Thursday".

Then I got a dispatched notification, but the order page now says "arriving Saturday" - even though it's supposed to be "next day delivery" with Prime

I think if it doesn't arrive tomorrow, I'll hop on the Amazon chat and have a chunter at the helpline and see if I can get them to knock a few more quid off. It's pants

I am having similar weirdness with my Cure 7" that I ordered from their website. On Thursday I got a dispatched notice, and it's Royal Mail 24, so I was expecting it on Friday as that was release day Yet - on the Royal Mail Tracker, it's still saying we are awaiting the item from the sender

Is it just Black Friday madness causing supply chain havoc?

GotBlueEyes wrote:

Mr Discography wrote: The fact there's no comments in this thread yet about the live DVDs is a strong clue that very few people have received their physical sets yet. Guess most of us ordered from Amazon, so obviously that's a big part of the problem, but it's making me wonder if there are other distributions problems here thee and everywhere.

Yeah - lord knows what is going on.

My Amazon order said "arriving Tuesday" on the release day, then that changed to "arriving Thursday".

Then I got a dispatched notification, but the order page now says "arriving Saturday" - even though it's supposed to be "next day delivery" with Prime

I think if it doesn't arrive tomorrow, I'll hop on the Amazon chat and have a chunter at the helpline and see if I can get them to knock a few more quid off. It's pants

I am having similar weirdness with my Cure 7" that I ordered from their website. On Thursday I got a dispatched notice, and it's Royal Mail 24, so I was expecting it on Friday as that was release day Yet - on the Royal Mail Tracker, it's still saying we are awaiting the item from the sender

Is it just Black Friday madness causing supply chain havoc?

I just got onto Amazon Customer Services. They said there appears to have been a delay in the delivery, ordered me another copy (which it says will be delivered on Tuesday) and gave me £5 credit onto my account.

People should think of a "release date" as more of a "release suggestion." Post-COVID in particular there are still manufacturing delays. A box set has CDs, DVDs, vinyl, book binding, and printing - that's a lot of moving parts. The label may be given a target release date by the manufacturer when they send a set to production, only to run into unexpected delays.

One box set I ordered during COVID was finally delivered a full year after the release date.

I'm just about to dig in to the DVD content.

I'm surprised the exterior of the box set is so close in appearance to the Low-Life one. I think it would have been nice to go for a gunmetal grey (with a hint of blue like this menu screen) to differentiate it.

Boxes Menu

Mr Discography wrote: The fact there's no comments in this thread yet about the live DVDs is a strong clue that very few people have received their physical sets yet. Guess most of us ordered from Amazon, so obviously that's a big part of the problem, but it's making me wonder if there are other distributions problems here thee and everywhere.

If anyone is wondering, the interviews with Hooky and Steve have been tagged onto the end of the Academy set. They no longer interrupt "Dreams Never End" (though the song is still audible in the background as they speak).

brotherhood boxset review - pictures first... [part 0/2]

its finally here... i thought it would come tuesday according to tracking, but then i got a notice today, and here it is...

also got the 3 singles along with it....

here it is with my other boxsets in protective cases..

you can get these from art store, or home goods.. look for scrapbook protectors, they are 14x14 inches...

i also have enough room to put the extra singles along with them in the box..

everything looks good, but how does it sound, and whats in it...

later | || | | | ne gative 1

Well, looks like my box set has been dispatched by Amazon but it’s not going to be delivered until Friday(?!).

FFS! What a monumental cock-up.

here we are, part 1/2 of the brotherhood boxset.

i'm splitting this review up into 2 parts.. the audio and tracks... and the video after .....

after a bit of a wait since the last boxset, how long has it been now... i thoroughly enjoyed the low-life, and power corruption and lies boxset.. movement was pretty good too...

now we come to one of the more landmark albums from them.

however, for me, it was not as good as the previous ones... it had a few great songs, and some good lead up singles too.

it was in the late 80's that new order finally made their mark in America, and i had been keeping up with them since 83, and had got to see them live also.

i remember when this album came out, along with bizarre love triangle single. not a single person i knew got the album or the single either. i had to introduce it to a ton of people who like the single though.

eventually later that year, through clubs and our progressive radio station, and MTV some people ended up learning more about new order... all that would explode when Substance 1987 came out.

well enough of the backstory.

i played brotherhood quite a bit back then, and enjoyed the more electronic tracks, didn't care for the guitar tracks, and hated every little counts, seemed like a waste of space to end on that.

i LOVED way of life, and although there was a promo single in the US, it was never a single. it still remains one of their strongest tracks to me..

and here we are many, many years later with the boxset. i rarely listen to the album completely, so its a little like rediscovering it again..

by now, you know the drill.. the remastered LP, CD, some bonus tracks, demos and remixes along with video content...

i will not usually be talking about sound quality, as it depends on how picky you are, but overall, i am happy with it.

i ordered this from the US new order store, along with the 3 singles. i guess if i had waited, i could have gotten it a little cheaper.

it was sent out last friday, and was supposed to arrive next tuesday, but i got conflicting tracking messages, and it ended up showing up today (sunday 11/24), so that worked out.

i don't care when things arrive, as long as there aren't huge delays. especially considering the amount of time it took to make this, and for it come here.

opened up the package, which was expertly packed, never had an issue or problem, just like the previous ones...

First up is the LP - in a reproduction of the UK limited edition metallic cover: i got my copy about 3 years ago, in decent shape (after 2 tries, the first discogs seller couldn't find his copy) https://www.discogs.com/release/1813483-New-Order-Brotherhood

it goes for about $80, and there's usually several copies if you want an original. most are in ok condition, as the sleeve is the first to wear out.

i know, the other one is behind framed glass, but i didn't feel like taking it out..

the new reproduction is EXCELLENT, very shiny, and great job. the colors and texture match up pretty well, i dont' think they are exact. but why nitpik. its a great touch.

https://www.discogs.com/release/32391060-New-Order-Brotherhood Brotherhood boxset 2024

A1 Paradise 3:52 A2 Weirdo 3:53 A3 As It Is When It Was 3:46 A4 Broken Promise 3:47 A5 Way of Life 4:08 A6 Bizarre Love Triangle 4:22 A7 All Day Long 5:13 A8 Angel Dust 3:43 A9 Every Little Counts 4:27

the remastered UK version of the album, i have not played the vinyl, and don't really plan too, since i have the cd and digital versions already.

front and back of the metallic covers CD and LP the cd is also a reproduction of the metallic foil cover for the UK CD. https://www.discogs.com/release/168755-New-Order-Brotherhood

this goes for about $20, and there are always copies around..

i got totally lucky and found it in an import music store, when it came out. so i didn't pay too much for it, and have had it ever since, and took care of the cover.

again, the reproduction is EXCELLENT... great quality, shiny, slightly metallic..

CD1-1 Paradise 3:52 CD1-2 Weirdo 3:53 CD1-3 As It Is When It Was 3:46 CD1-4 Broken Promise 3:47 CD1-5 Way of Life 4:08 CD1-6 Bizarre Love Triangle 4:22 CD1-7 All Day Long 5:13 CD1-8 Angel Dust 3:43 CD1-9 Every Little Counts 4:27 CD1-10 State of the Nation 6:34

to me the addition of 'state of the nation' doesn't bother me... the US version of course didn't have it.. it was a bonus track on the US cd single for bizarre love triangle.. https://www.discogs.com/release/4023-New-Order-Bizarre-Love-Triangle

[another weird thing was i don't think it got released on this format in other countries.... mostly vinyl and cassette...]

it does seem tacked on though, and probably would have fit better more in the middle..

anyways, as a collector, i have tons of versions of the cd, LP, cassette, etc.. so here's one more to add to it..

tons of the original singles from different countries... UK, Greece, France, US

including the bizarre love triangle extended edits... and US way of life promo

small video walkaround (with easter egg paradise instrumental).... NOTE: it qualifies as short and not full video..ughh..

https://www.youtube.com/watch/KK-yK20ZlCk

Many of these extras have been released already on youtube and now digitally..

i was hoping there was a lot more extra tracks, more demos, more mixes, but not quite...

a few have been unreleased until now, at least to me... i don't usually hunt down demos... but i do hunt down promo mixes, and more...

Extras

shellshock, is basically a shorter version, with all the verses in it.. it's kind of like the pretty in pink version.. but more dense.

the state of the nation japanese demo is very cool, with a lot of differences, i think there might have been a few more versions, but we did get this..

CD2-1 Shellshock (AOR version) 6:00 CD2-2 State Of the Nation (Japan demo) 7:07

the paradise remix is awesome, and has appeared a few other deluxe releases, and compilations..

i first heard it on the australian limited 12 inch for true faith.. https://www.discogs.com/release/539369-New-Order-True-Faith-Remix

it really should have gotten more exposure, and really elevates the song.. CD2-3 Paradise 6:41

a demo version of this song, not a favorite of mine, but a very short take on it, with different vocals CD2-4 As It Is When It Was (Japan demo) 3:32

i love instrumentals, so its cool to finally here one of this song. they usually put them on singles, or weird compilations, but not this one.. CD2-5 Broken Promise (Instrumental) 3:47

an alternate remix of this well known song.. its not as punchy as the shep pettibone remix, due to the drums, but in between the weird samples, and the bells, this might have worked better on the video..

of course the video version also has a weird vocal break and different mix...

this version is for fans of the bells, and do do dos... CD2-6 Bizarre Love Triangle (12") 5:48

another instrumental, that is longer than the album version, enjoy the extra sounds, and clearer instrumentation CD2-7 All Day Long (Instrumental) 5:33

awesome song, but again, way too short. was on some weirdy funky alternatives compilations, and the true faith CDV https://www.discogs.com/release/462979-New-Order-True-Faith

boy talk about making it hard for fans to find it..... CD2-8 Evil Dust 3:42

the less said the better, basically a much longer drawn out orchestral ending.. CD2-9 Every Little Counts (full length) 5:17

these tracks (except for touched by the hand of God), are all instrumental little snippets from the salvation movie.. some are very atmospheric, and some have some cool sounds in them.. touched by the hand of God is great, although much rougher and rawer than the actual released version

CD2-10 Salvation Theme 2:15 CD2-11 Skullcrusher (Full length) 3:57 CD2-12 Touched By The Hand Of God (Salvation version) 5:03 CD2-13 Let's Go (Salvation version) 3:45 CD2-14 Sputnik 2:33

an alternate remix that doesn't have all the samples all over the place. there was a promo cassette found that had several takes of this.. CD2-15 Blue Monday 1988 (12") 7:34

so what do i think?

is it worth it.... while not having as much material, i would say this.

this is NOT A REVIEW OF THE ALBUM TRACKS....

audio content 3/5 - could have had more mixes, demos or instrumentals..

production values 5/5 - amazing quality, excellent reproductions, and the book is fantastic too. very high quality pictures, cover, the materials, everything is great...

sample page talking about the moods of the songs.. (will get back to this later)..

i would like to say though, the cds, and DVDS, are WAY TOO TIGHT, i struggled to get them out, and thought they were stuck.. after carefully putting pressure and wiggling them, i got them out. i know they will loosen up eventually, but i will probably never open them again..

price - $150 from the US new order store.. too much? yeah, thats the main complaint.

but too me, the book, and the dvd content almost makes it worth it.

so why did i get it? well i didn't feel like waiting around, and i had the money, and it was easier to get it, and 3 singles all at once, from one place.

i haven't made many music purchases this year, and have been saving up all year for it. so why now.. i've mostly been buying clothes, shoes, and a new order soccer ball, so it felt good to finally get some music and videos.

price - 2/5

maybe if you're a hardcore fan you'll get it anyways.. otherwise wait for a sale (could take a year or so),,,, get the digital version in the time being, or listen on youtube...

i'm happy with it, and glad to add it to the collection..

honestly, this might be 'it' for me, and i don't really care for any of the albums after this... will they even make more?

the collector in me would get them, but the fan in me doesn't really need them, or wonder about what will be on them, or wait for them..

it's been a great ride, and i'm so happy they finally have some 'near' reference quality deluxe versions for fans.

thanks to new order, and all the people that worked on these, they are superb additions to new orders catalogue.

later || | || | | ne gative 1

[end of part 1/2]

Andy wrote:

If anyone is wondering, the interviews with Hooky and Steve have been tagged onto the end of the Academy set. They no longer interrupt "Dreams Never End" (though the song is still audible in the background as they speak).

That’s good to know. That interview always bothered me; spoiling the flow of the gig.

Have any of the gregarious special effects that were added to the Academy video been removed (i.e. is the footage from before Mike Mansfield or whoever messed about with it)?

It’s been a long time since I last watched this gig, but I can remember there were some pretty awful borders and effects put on the footage. I also remember there were some dreadful edits in it where you’d see Bernard without a guitar (say, during BLT) then, a second later, there’d be a long-shot with him with a guitar. A few seconds later, no guitar etc.
I guess it’s common for music film makers to splice in footage from other points in the footage for long-shots, but usually they are more careful and ensure continuity is maintained.

Seem to think there’s a similar incident once or twice in the Enfants du Rock footage of BLT (Bernard’s guitar swapping from his Gibson to his Tokai Strat instantly).

so now we arrive at the video portion of the collection... in the past the DVDs have been a great addition, and they are still excellent additions here mostly too.... the live shows are excellent, and the interviews and snippets are cool to see... the live tv appearances are most similiar, but they do pick out some good songs at times....

the first DVD contains the academy show, but finally THE STUPID INTERVIEW parts are cut out, as they should be, and stuck on the end, so we can hear the songs in full.

great versions, lots of improvs, and much better sounding, a very enjoyable show... will be ripping the audio, just to listen to the tracks that way.

video quality B+ sound quality B+

Part 2 - the videos

excellent versions of all the songs... can't ask for much more.. peak new order live..

this is the 'academy' show, which was on VHS first.. in 1989 https://www.discogs.com/release/232159-NewOrder-Academy

DVD1

Live Show - Brixton Academy, London 1987 1 Bizarre Love Triangle 2 Perfect Kiss 3 Ceremony 4 Dreams Never End 5 Love Vigilantes 6 Confusion 7 Age of Consent 8 Temptation

again, a decent interview on its own.

Academy VHS 1987 9 Interviews

and now a ton of TV appearances.

barney talks a lot for the intros... ceremony is awesome, and hearing love will take us apart in an early concert... of course they brought it back now.. but back then you rarely heard it live..

very energetic and frantic versions.. Review : 4/5 stars TV Appearances BBC NI 1986 10 Ceremony 11 Love Will Tear Us Apart

shorter versions of the song. state of the nation sounds pretty good - were they miming? the mix is different since its more like the single version..

broken promise - a very rocking version, with some new 'lyrics' from barney.. i hate how there always credits over the songs at the end of the show.. so distracting.. but the audio quality is good.

Review : 5/5 stars The Tube 1986 12 State of the Nation 13 Broken Promise

a very short, plain version of the song... i guess all top of the pops videos look pretty much the same... bernards voice is kind of low.

Review : 3/5 stars Top of The Pops 1987 14 True Faith

here we get a cool version of paradise.. lots of great bass sounds, again i think bernards vocals are mixed low... decent version..

and of course bizarre love triangle - very upbeat, more like a short remix version Review : 4/5 stars

Les Enfants du Rock, Rockline 1987 15 Paradise 16 Bizarre Love Triangle

this is similar to the TOTP version, they even look similar, stage setup, outfits etc... redundant

Review : 2/5 stars The Roxy 1987 17 True Faith

a very cool, and different take on the song - they seem to do things differently for the japanese... super echoey vocals..

Review : 4/5 stars 11PM Japanese TV 1987 18 Bizarre Love Triangle

a nice little documentary of the two tracks.. review : 4/5 stars Denon Studios, Tokyo 1985 19 Recording 'As It Is When It Was' and 'State of the Nation'

overall, the first disc is decent.. great live show... and several tv appearances.. would have liked more variety... but they do play some lesser known tracks..

yes i know true faith, and bizarre love triangle will be all over many times.... but did we need all of these? hmm...

overally DVD rating : 3.5/5 stars

FINALLY getting to hear the butchered tracks in full makes it worthwhile..

=========

very good setlist... nice hearing shellshock, paradise, and especially way of life (little skip in the lyrics, oops)...

shellshock of course has some of barneys cursing and profane language in it..

bizarre love triangle has slightly different lyrics. every day i see you falling..

state of the nation (and again different lyrics) and face up (more curse word changes in it) are good too.

super combo of perfect kiss, what a mess this song is... but i love it.. the instrumental parts and ending are sublime..

ceremony w guest ian mcculloch is AWESOME... i know it must have been fun for him to be there....

and temptation to end it.. love the improvs at the end, and all the guitar work on it..

overall review : 4.5/5 stars

Video Quality : B+ Audio Quality : A-

DVD2 Live Show - GMEX, Manchester 1986 1 Elegia 2 Shellshock 3 Paradise 4 Bizarre Love Triangle 5 Way of Life 6 State Of The Nation 7 Face Up 8 The Perfect Kiss 9 Ceremony 10 Temptation

this is a very short set..

barneys voice is great in true faith, a pretty standard version, nothing fancy..

sister ray is a very strange, cool cover song..

Review : 3/5 stars

Live Shows Glastonbury Festival 1987 11 True Faith 12 Sister Ray

interesting that they did dreams never end here.. always liked this song..

audio quality is a bit murky though..

more like a promo clip, in the editting and shot selection..

review : 5/5 stars

San Giovanni 1986 13 Dreams Never End

what a very cool and strange set.. all day long.. is ok, as a midtempo song..

and the very cool angel dust.. very intense shellshock makes and appearance, with lots of cool edits and stutters

and weirdo at the end.. fast rocker song... thats about right.

there's a ton of reverb and echo on the vocals...

Review : 4/5 stars

Pier 84, New York 1987 14 All Day Long 15 Angel Dust 16 Shellshock 17 Weirdo

a pretty standard version, with a lyric change of taking drugs with me..

review : 2.5/5 stars La Mutualite, Paris 1987 18 True Faith

touched by the hand of God is excellent, nice to hear...

but every little counts is not..

the sound is very muffled and murky on these...

review : 3/5 stars

GMEX, Manchester 1988 19 Touched by The Hand Of God 20 Every Little Counts

so we get another great concert, and a multitude of little clips... the ney york ones are pretty cool..... and sister ray at glastonbury is a treat...

overall, this disc is better than the first one... but both are very good.

Review : 4/5 stars

overall, the DVD content is excellent, its great having 2 full shows, and all these little documentaries, and snippets... didn't care much for the shorter TV appearances though... most seemed similar.

overall, a great addition to the package....

these really are a time capsule that takes you back to moments in time... a great way to revisit how they used to be...

If you're a fan of the early new order shows, than this is totally worth it. One of the saving graces for the boxset.

will there be more???????

Final total : 4/5 stars

later || || | || n egative 1

[end part 2/2]

Thanks for the review of the video contents, -1. I think you might be one of only three people here who've been able to watch it. The rest of us are still waiting.

perspexorange wrote: Thanks for the review of the video contents, -1. I think you might be one of only three people here who've been able to watch it. The rest of us are still waiting.

dont worry, good things come to those that wait..

for each of the boxsets, there was about 15 pages of speculation,10 pages of complaints of shipping, prices, etc.. 5 pages of 'its here'...... and then a slow trickle of actual reviews and comments...

and then silence after that for years until the cycle started again...

the funny thing is, as i mentioned, i wasnt expecting it until next week, and then it showed up....

very new order like... but then again, i ordered from the main store, which most people didn't, maybe a similar thing happened with the UK store.

later ||| || | | n egative 1

I'm getting more and more annoyed with Amazon. In theory, if I ordered the set fresh today, I could apparently have it delivered tomorrow. However, as they already dispatched mine yesterday, for delivery on Friday (even though I requested Prime next day delivery), there isn't really anything I can do. It's in the post. I just have to wait.

Just tried to contact Amazon; just to register my annoyance at this and see if they can do anything about it (probably just to request a compensating credit on my account). The only options are a 'phone call (which, to be honest, I don't think I have the patience for, at this point in time) or their online chat.

Tried the 'chat' option. Basically, my only option is to wait for the 'refund' they've issued to me. Refund, you say? Yeah - the £0.16 'price difference' that they've automatically issued to me. So, I can't query anything else because the stupid bot thinks that I've requested a refund on the whole product. So, according to them, I just need to 'sit tight' and wait. Bollocks.

I miss the good old days when companies didn't use bots to deal with customer service and you could just drop them an email.

perspexorange wrote: I'm getting more and more annoyed with Amazon. In theory, if I ordered the set fresh today, I could apparently have it delivered tomorrow. However, as they already dispatched mine yesterday, for delivery on Friday (even though I requested Prime next day delivery), there isn't really anything I can do. It's in the post. I just have to wait.

Just tried to contact Amazon; just to register my annoyance at this and see if they can do anything about it (probably just to request a compensating credit on my account). The only options are a 'phone call (which, to be honest, I don't think I have the patience for, at this point in time) or their online chat.

Tried the 'chat' option. Basically, my only option is to wait for the 'refund' they've issued to me. Refund, you say? Yeah - the £0.16 'price difference' that they've automatically issued to me. So, I can't query anything else because the stupid bot thinks that I've requested a refund on the whole product. So, according to them, I just need to 'sit tight' and wait. Bollocks.

I miss the good old days when companies didn't use bots to deal with customer service and you could just drop them an email.

I managed the find a way to chat with an actual operative through the online chat last night. They cancelled the one that had already shipped and seemed to be in France, then ordered the replacement, which is now due Tuesday by 10pm.

Well, I braved the 'phone call.

As suspected, they couldn't cancel my order as it been dispatched (glad yours was able to be cancelled, Mr. D). They've apparently raised a ticket with the courier (Royal Mail) to expedite the delivery. I don't hold out much hope for this, but you never know. Mine's probably in France too.

They've given me a £5 credit, which is something, I guess.

They did suggest I order again for delivery tomorrow, then refuse delivery of the Friday set (or send it back for a refund). That sounded risky, considering I've already been charged. I guess it would probably work out ok in the end, but I envision jumping through all sorts of hoops to make sure I don't get charged twice. So thanks but no thanks.

I guess my call achieved what I'd resigned myself to; a Friday delivery date but a slightly cheaper price for the inconvenience.

Sorry - I guess people are coming on here hoping to see reviews and excited chat about the box and they're just getting me moaning.

To be honest, if Amazon couldn't deliver on the specified date and could only send it a week late, I think I could've put up with that. What I do take issue with is the fact that, if I ordered today, I'd have it three days earlier than I'm going to be getting it. All that and paying £80 or so a year for Prime for the privilege of 'next day' delivery.

First World problems, eh? Watch me kick off when I don't get an 'obi band'.

perspexorange wrote: Well, I braved the 'phone call.

As suspected, they couldn't cancel my order as it been dispatched (glad yours was able to be cancelled, Mr. D). They've apparently raised a ticket with the courier (Royal Mail) to expedite the delivery. I don't hold out much hope for this, but you never know. Mine's probably in France too.

They've given me a £5 credit, which is something, I guess.

They did suggest I order again for delivery tomorrow, then refuse delivery of the Friday set (or send it back for a refund). That sounded risky, considering I've already been charged. I guess it would probably work out ok in the end, but I envision jumping through all sorts of hoops to make sure I don't get charged twice. So thanks but no thanks.

I guess my call achieved what I'd resigned myself to; a Friday delivery date but a slightly cheaper price for the inconvenience.

Sorry - I guess people are coming on here hoping to see reviews and excited chat about the box and they're just getting me moaning.

To be honest, if Amazon couldn't deliver on the specified date and could only send it a week late, I think I could've put up with that. What I do take issue with is the fact that, if I ordered today, I'd have it three days earlier than I'm going to be getting it. All that and paying £80 or so a year for Prime for the privilege of 'next day' delivery.

First World problems, eh? Watch me kick off when I don't get an 'obi band'.

No wonder we've had these problems if it's coming via Royal Mail. They've been shocking over the last 12 months. Some other CDs I ordered a few weeks ago via Royal Mail ended up at a sorting office in Colwyn Bay, Wales (I'm in the south of England)!

perspexorange wrote: Well, I braved the 'phone call.

As suspected, they couldn't cancel my order as it been dispatched (glad yours was able to be cancelled, Mr. D). They've apparently raised a ticket with the courier (Royal Mail) to expedite the delivery. I don't hold out much hope for this, but you never know. Mine's probably in France too.

They've given me a £5 credit, which is something, I guess.

They did suggest I order again for delivery tomorrow, then refuse delivery of the Friday set (or send it back for a refund). That sounded risky, considering I've already been charged. I guess it would probably work out ok in the end, but I envision jumping through all sorts of hoops to make sure I don't get charged twice. So thanks but no thanks.

I guess my call achieved what I'd resigned myself to; a Friday delivery date but a slightly cheaper price for the inconvenience.

Sorry - I guess people are coming on here hoping to see reviews and excited chat about the box and they're just getting me moaning.

To be honest, if Amazon couldn't deliver on the specified date and could only send it a week late, I think I could've put up with that. What I do take issue with is the fact that, if I ordered today, I'd have it three days earlier than I'm going to be getting it. All that and paying £80 or so a year for Prime for the privilege of 'next day' delivery.

First World problems, eh? Watch me kick off when I don't get an 'obi band'.

I'm in very much the same boat. Was "dispatched" on Saturday, but isn't due to arrive until next Saturday. Got onto the chat and harangued the poor wee Amazon lad about how I selected "Prime next day delivery" until he gave me an £8.99 refund to shut me up, and he promised it would be here "before saturday"

perspexorange wrote:

Andy wrote:

If anyone is wondering, the interviews with Hooky and Steve have been tagged onto the end of the Academy set. They no longer interrupt "Dreams Never End" (though the song is still audible in the background as they speak).

That’s good to know. That interview always bothered me; spoiling the flow of the gig.

Have any of the gregarious special effects that were added to the Academy video been removed (i.e. is the footage from before Mike Mansfield or whoever messed about with it)?

It’s been a long time since I last watched this gig, but I can remember there were some pretty awful borders and effects put on the footage. I also remember there were some dreadful edits in it where you’d see Bernard without a guitar (say, during BLT) then, a second later, there’d be a long-shot with him with a guitar. A few seconds later, no guitar etc.
I guess it’s common for music film makers to splice in footage from other points in the footage for long-shots, but usually they are more careful and ensure continuity is maintained.

Seem to think there’s a similar incident once or twice in the Enfants du Rock footage of BLT (Bernard’s guitar swapping from his Gibson to his Tokai Strat instantly).

The weird intercuts of things like Stephen behind the drumkit during BLT are still there. That hasn't been re-edited.

Mr Discography wrote:

No wonder we've had these problems if it's coming via Royal Mail. They've been shocking over the last 12 months.

Yeah. I've had similar issues with Amazon using Royal Mail before. It kind of makes a mockery of the whole 'Prime' thing if they palm it off to a separate courier (rather than their own 'Amazon Logistics') and the courier isn't going to abide by the terms of the Prime arrangement.

GotBlueEyes wrote:

I'm in very much the same boat. Was "dispatched" on Saturday, but isn't due to arrive until next Saturday. Got onto the chat and harangued the poor wee Amazon lad about how I selected "Prime next day delivery" until he gave me an £8.99 refund to shut me up, and he promised it would be here "before saturday"

Hey, £8.99?!!!! I feel robbed only getting a fiver! I'll give them another ring...

Second thoughts... I won't.

Andy wrote:

The weird intercuts of things like Stephen behind the drumkit during BLT are still there. That hasn't been re-edited.

Oh dear. Yeah - that's the kind of thing that I was referring to.