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Luke wrote:
About that Blancmange thing: EVERY title-track they made is on their upcoming reissue/remaster of their 3 albums.
where is the 10 minute remix of 'lose your love'?
i don't see it?
(and forget about the 6 minute edit of it, that would be asking too much)..
choose your words/examples a little better, and i might actually listen to what you are saying..
if you don't pay attention to those kinds of details, why do think new order/factory/rhino will either?
later -1
Nick King wrote:
No it doesn't - the demos you constantly seek are available to download, an exhaustive amount of remixes would send (even myself, who owns EVERYTHING they've ever released) to sleep, and there are samples that exist on other mixes that can't be released due to legal reasons...
hey i'm glad to see at least 1 mix of 'freak/insane lover', but what about the other 2..
i have their promo's, i have their fanclub cd's, i have the extra disc from the DVD, and i have a lot of promo cd's ('moses' with exclusive edit)..
but i wouldn't think everyone has access to those..
and NO, i haven't seen those for download either..
once again, you're giving 808 state a free pass, and i know you're really interested in defending them, as you're mentioned on their board...
why don't you hold them up to the standards everyone else seems to be holding up 'new order' too?
Nick King wrote:
You don't appear to realise that a CD of constant 7" edits wouldn't appeal to anyone but a small minority... And most record companies in their right mind wouldn't release a 25 CD boxset to cater for that minority...
tell that to depeche mode fans (6 box sets), simple minds fans (5 box sets) big country fans (4 box sets) duran duran (2 box sets) cabaret voltaire (2 box sets) tears for fear fans , abc, alphaville, a-ha, u2, and ever other group out there that has AT LEAST TRIED TO RELEASE COMPREHENSIVE BOX SETS of their tracks..
and don't tell me they don't have as large as discography, or as many tracks, or have bigger fanbases, some of them don't...
later -1
-1 wrote: hey i'm glad to see at least 1 mix of 'freak/insane lover', but what about the other 2..
To be available via Digital Download...
-1 wrote:
jasonlg2008 wrote:
Frankly speaking, that's a ridiculous and juvenile criticism.
so don't tell me that i'm invalid in saying, 'why don't you do it yourself', because that's exactly what some of us are doing ...
Yes, it is ridiculous and juvenile because when you said "why don't you do it yourself", you basically challenged the person you were replying to to lay out the details and execute a full-scale commercial release with "licensing" and "marketing". So don't try to now claim that you meant something different.
And, yes, thank you, we are all well aware that we can rip tracks from vinyl, use a CD-R burner to create compilations, and print out inserts from a home printer to create our own versions of New Order releases. I do stuff like that all the time. But that is besides the point, which is criticism of the officially released product, which you've failed to address and for whatever reason you keep avoiding.
Frankly, I don't have a lot of patience left so don't expect further participation from me if the discussion doesn't move on from here. There are other threads if you have such a desire to discuss fan-made compilations.
Emile Strunz wrote:
-1 wrote:
mark reed wrote: let's be blunt about it.
no more apologies : NO dont give a toss about tidying up their convoluted and immense discography
why don't you post your listing, and let's how great a job you do..
go ahead, lets see it..
come up with something better, do the licensing for the tracks, come up with a marketing plan, and then get them pressed..
can't do it?
i thought so..
so what's your excuse/apology? [and yes, i'm already working on MY version of it, it just won't be for sale]
later -1
FFS!! This was always about putting something out that showed that a bit of tender loving fucking care had been shown by the band, and that they cared about their fans. Once again I'll mention Messrs Tennant and Lowe, as the Pet Shop Boys albums were not about releasing their entire back catalogue, but hand picking a few rarities and remixes that tidied things up - imagine Mesh, The Happy One, Shellshock 12", The Perfect Kiss 12", The Perfect Pit, True Dub, Round & Round Detroit mixes, Hacienda flexi etc on Disc 2? I'm sorry, I'm not an intellectual property lawyer, but why would the licensing of these tracks be a problem?
Even Blancmange have recently done a better job on their old albums. That's Blancmange people. Remember them?!!
You couldn't make it up!
To me, this is about the fundamental relationship between the band and the fans.
Can I ask all the apologists out there if (hand on heart) they are satisfied with the errors, the omissions, and the inconsistencies on these remasters. 808 State's recent approach was great with Graham Massey consulting with the fans and, like the PSBs, releasing something of value.
None of this is about licensing, marketing, time or cost, as there's nothing to be licensed, a robust package would have marketed itself, and the time and cost would have been exactly the same.
No, this is about incompetence, or worse, not giving a shit.
And that people, is a crying, fucking shame.
mark reed wrote: let's be blunt about it.
the bonus tracks are a poorly concieved, sequenced, and incomprehensive set of (mostly very available) b-sides
it would've taken only a few hours work to put together a more pleasing and comprehensive package
these reissues are probably fine for people who got into new order from 2001 onwards, but most people who like them liked them a long time before that
these reissues are lacking in any pleasing qualities in terms of tracklist or running order.
no more apologies : NO dont give a toss about tidying up their convoluted and immense discography
There's alot of stuff being said here that I disagree with, but I'll use this post that I summarily agree with as a jumping off point. Especially the last point about tidying things up. One of the things that's unique about their catalog is the number of singles not included on the "proper" albums of the Factory period (and by this I mean the 5 albums being reissued and not Substance). And of those singles that are on an album, off the top of my head, I think only the Fine Time 12" A-side corresponds with it's album version on Technique. So there's a good 19 essential singles (the 12 Substance A-sides + Procession, Murder, TBTHOG, BM88, R&R, Run2 & WIM) plus 9 non remix B-sides (IALP, Mesh, Cries and Whispers, Hurt, Lonesome Tonight, 1963, Don't do it, Best & Marsh, and MTO) that need to be tacked on somewhere to the 5 albums in order to complete what I would call the bare minimum of requirements for a definitive NO collection. And other than the exclusion of the full 12" mix of Shellshock--which still baffles me as personally I love the parts of that song missing from the John Robie remix--they certainly got everything covered. I might also contend that Thieves like Us instrumental and Shame of the Nation are sufficiently different enough from the A-side versions as to warrant "essential" status, but that's just my opinion.
But, here's where I think the not giving "a toss about tidying up their convoluted and immense discography" comes into play. I've not checked track times (and I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong -1), but I think you could fit the 19 singles (plus Fine Time as it would just be wrong to exclude it from a singles collection) as well as the 9 B-sides onto an expanded "Substance 1989 or 2008" or somesuch 2cd compilation and release that along with single disc remastered versions of all the albums at a reasonable price and I'd have no problem with that as a fairly definitive collection of the Factory years for New Order. It would be like the Stones' reissues that include Hot Rocks or the Beatles' Past Masters compilations (which favor separate singles collections as opposed to tacking them onto the roughly corresponding albums). In fact (to comment on the issue of the commercial viability of this reissue series), I bet that an expanded Substance would outsell all of the individual albums combined (at least here in America).
Instead, though, what we get is a tracklisting which while expanding in terms of total number of tracks and minutes of music available from what I've listed above, does nothing to help recap or (in Mark's words) "tidy up" New Order's immense catalog and legacy. And while I welcome some of these tracks availability on CD, I can't as a whole get too excited about the overall project as the bonus discs (while containing songs that certainly supplement their corresponding albums) do nothing for me as far as presenting each album and/or that period for the band in a new light. And again this is just my opinion obviously, but that's what all (and I mean 100%) of the "Collector's Edition" or "Deluxe Edition" CD reissues have done or at least tried to accomplish. I can't speak to some of the Cure, PSB or other bands that've been mentioned here, but reissued 2CD premium priced sets that I own by Sonic Youth, Pavement, Joy Division, Fleetwood Mac, The Who, Beck, T. Rex, The Kinks and others have all included previously unreleased material which has not only justified the price but in many cases made me appreciate the original album more but barring that have at least given me an insight into the creative process behind whatever album it was. Likewise, I've also bought single disc remasters by the Kinks, Echo & the Bmen, Talking Heads, Lynyrd Skynyrd and others which have collected the albums plus accompanying singles and B-sides which I'm equally satisfied with.
So I guess what really gets me so boiled about this reissue plan is 2 things:
London/WB is charging premium "Deluxe" or "Collectors" edition prices for collections which don't meet the criteria (in my opinion) established by a number of other reissues by countless other bands by issuing needless 2CD sets that don't maximize the 2CD format capacity (and believe me this is the lesser of my complaints as money is not really a factor in my decision to buy or not buy these sets), but more importantly...
The band and or record company is again neglecting the opportunity to give the band I love more than any other a proper career retrospective and all the accompanying critical accolades that I think they deserve. And this most certainly is their final chance in the record/CD/physical product era. And hopefully the proposed website and accompanying releases will come to fruition, but only the true diehards like myself and others here will bother to connect the dots for the complete picture instead of maybe having the band, management, or record co. doing a little bit of work to present a meaningful summation of one of the great bodies of work in pop/rock history.
As always, just my opinion....
And just so you know, as far as the reissues' tracklisting goes, I've got and have converted to digital files everything (7"s,12"s,promo 7"s, Canadian gatefold 7"s,CDVs,Laserdiscs,Videos,Compilations,X-mas Flexis,Record Mirror 7"s,Australian12"s, etc.) that was officially released from the Factory years that's currently unavailable on CD. As well as thousands of hours of live material that I've personally "remastered" from cassettes and LPs as well as other stuff that I've downloaded off the interweb, so this post is not born of some personal quest for any particular track that I've not been able to track down or afford from Ebay. It really is just about the quality of the reissue series and the legacy of the band that I'd like to see perpetuated.
Suzuki wrote: I think only the Fine Time 12" A-side corresponds with it's album version on Technique.
Please listen carefully Fine Time(FAC223 12" A side). It's not same Technique version. a little bit different!
I'd have reissued Substance and still done the two-disc versions of the Factory albums, with none of the Substance tracks included on the bonus discs bar one or two essentials. I too think that Substance would outsell the albums.
Fac 328 wrote: I'd have reissued Substance and still done the two-disc versions of the Factory albums, with none of the Substance tracks included on the bonus discs bar one or two essentials. I too think that Substance would outsell the albums.
I reckon that's why they haven't done it - spread the non-album stuff as widely as possible, to extract the maximum spend.
And, what with the stuff they haven't included, they've still left themselves room for a future box set aimed at collectors.
-1 wrote:
Luke wrote:
About that Blancmange thing: EVERY title-track they made is is on their upcoming reissue/remaster of their 3 albums.
where is the 10 minute remix of 'lose your love'?
i don't see it?
(and forget about the 6 minute edit of it, that would be asking too much)..
choose your words/examples a little better, and i might actually listen to what you are saying..
if you don't pay attention to those kinds of details, why do think new order/factory/rhino will either?
later -1
Well, Mr. Minus One,
To catch up with the Blancmange topic: I meant EVERY SONG TITLE TRACK they made for London Records is on the upcoming remasters. I'm from the Netherlands, so I can make misspells too.
And THAT'S my main complain regarding to reissues: at least take care on the fact to include all song titles, that doesn't have to be all remixes of those songs for me (although it would be nice ofcourse, but in many examples it's just too much, so you can do a singles box which include all remixes or so).
Later Luke
The whole thing is truly sad and disappointing. Why do they continue to try and milk a dollar out of their loyal fans. If they want my money they will have to re-record new versions or new material. I truly hope they continue without Hooky or perhaps he will come to his senses.
That wasn't so hard.
It's still a shame that the band couldn't be bothered to sequence the extra disc to make them worthwhile listening experiences in their own right.
I've already created iPod playlists of 'bonus discs'. For example, mine look like this. I've tried to create comprehensive lists on the basis of what we know is out there that also makes sense to listen to in order. I've not included the instrumental Joy Division soundchecks that we know exist or a couple of the 'bootleg only' covers of When I'm With You / Anarchy In The UK, etc.
My other idea was to make the bonus disc a DVD with a live show from the time, i.e. 1981 - Celebration, Factory Shorts, etc, 1985 - Tokyo, 1986 - Academy, 1989 - US Tour from Glasgow DVD, 1993 - Montreux and package these bonus tracks as audio MP3's on them..
This list took me 25 minutes to write.
Movement : Ceremony - Original Version Dreams Never End - Demo Homage - Demo Truth - Demo Ceremony - Demo Haystack Everythings Gone Green - 12" Procession Cries And Whispers Mesh Dreams Never End - Peel Truth - Peel Senses - Peel ICB - Peel Temptation (a mix of the 7" + 12" stuck together) Hurt In A Lonely Place - Original
PCL: Blue Monday Confusion (1983 12") Thieves Like Us Lonesome Tonight Murder Turn The Heater On - Peel Too Late - Peel We All Stand - Peel 586 - Peel Thieves Like Us - Instrumental The Beach Rockin' Carol Ode To Joy Video 586 (I've included TLU/LT because they recorded the same sessions as Confusion)
Lowlife: Salvation* The Perfect Kiss (amalgam of 12" mix and Instrumental) Subculture - Sarm West/Record Mirror Mix Touched By The Hand Of God* Let's Go - vocal demo Confusion - Instrumental Sunrise - Instrumental Let's Go - instrumental* Skullcrusher* Sputnik* The Perfect Kiss - Video version Elegia - Full Version
(there's some debate when these were recorded in my mind, I believe that since LG was demo'd in 85, and was recorded the same time as the rest of the Salvation Soundtrack, the band sat on them for 2 years before release, I've bumped Confusion Instrumental onto this due to time)
Brotherhood: Temptation - 1987 Confusion - 1987 True Faith 1963 Subculture - John Robie Version Shellshock - Full 12" Version State Of The Nation Bizarre Love Triangle - 12" Evil Dust Shame Of The Nation Theme A La MGM (everything between the end of Low Life and the start of Technique, including Substance)
Technique: Round & Round - New Order 12" Version Fine Time - Silk Mix Run2 - Extended Mix Touched By The Hand Of God - 7" Remix Blue Monday - 1988 12" World In Motion Vanishing Point - Making Out Mix Confusion - 1990 Remix Don't Do It Best & March MTO The Happy One The B Side World In Motion - LFO Mix Sister Ray - live
(*everything released between the end of the Substance set and the start of the Republic era is my criteria with the odd unreleased song. I've not used the much circulated Technique demos.)
For Republic it is
Regret - New Order Mix Ruined In A Day - Reunited Mix World - Brothers In Rhythm Mix Spooky - Nightripper Mix True Faith - TWA Mix 1963 - 95 Let's Go - 95 Blue Monday - 95 Temptation - 98 True Faith - Peel Touched By The Hand Of God - Peel Isolation - Peel Paradise - Peel Atmosphere - Peel Vicious Circle - New Order Mix Ruined In A Day - Ambient Mix
(I'm only including the '95 versions as some if not all of them have different vocals and instrumentation added in the 94-95 time period. I've not used the multitude of odd remixes from the Rest Of due to disc space.)
Overall, I'm missing some dubs due to time restrictions.
You could all just not buy these new releases which is what I intend doing.I have all the songs already,and who needs endless versions of songs and mixes of the songs,they have been at this remixing re-releasing nonsense since Blue Monday '88...For example,isn't Bizarre Dub Triangle the Shep Pettibone remix of the Shep Pettibone remix of the original? Surely that's a remix too far..I'm surprised they havent started releasing dance remixes of Joy Division tracks,surely it's only a matter of time...
Fuck me, some people have too much time on their hands. I will sum this state of affairs up very simply:
THIS IS ALL A LOAD OF STALE RANCID SPUNK AND I AM BORED SHITLESS WITH THIS POXY POP GROUP AND THEIR INCREASINGLY TAWDRY "LEGACY".
I thank you.
Cranelane,
They already have. "Trouser Enthusiasts Remix" of LWTUA is floating around somewhere.
PETER COATES'S BELATED REDEMPTION wrote: Fuck me, some people have too much time on their hands. I will sum this state of affairs up very simply:
THIS IS ALL A LOAD OF STALE RANCID SPUNK AND I AM BORED SHITLESS WITH THIS POX POP GROUP AND THEIR INCREASINGLY TAWDRY "LEGACY".
I thank you.
I AGREE
PETER COATES'S BELATED REDEMPTION wrote: Fuck me, some people have too much time on their hands. I will sum this state of affairs up very simply:
THIS IS ALL A LOAD OF STALE RANCID SPUNK AND I AM BORED SHITLESS WITH THIS POX POP GROUP AND THEIR INCREASINGLY TAWDRY "LEGACY".
I thank you.
Happily reported to Mods
I thank you
Solitude wrote:
PETER COATES'S BELATED REDEMPTION wrote: Fuck me, some people have too much time on their hands. I will sum this state of affairs up very simply:
THIS IS ALL A LOAD OF STALE RANCID SPUNK AND I AM BORED SHITLESS WITH THIS POX POP GROUP AND THEIR INCREASINGLY TAWDRY "LEGACY".
I thank you.
Happily reported to Mods
I thank you
I've just been fucking about in my music room, and stumbled across Cabaret Voltaire's Conform to Deform 3 CD Box Set - one disc of rarities, one disc of rare remixes and a live gig - AND, comprehensive sleeve notes with a nice quote from a certain Bernard Sumner amongst others (AH Wilson, Ralf Hutter, et al)
I fucking love the Cabs, but they never got near the success enjoyed by New Order, and yet they've got the ability to release something this good.
Should have gone to Virgin back in 1993 instead of London fucking Records
mark reed wrote:
My other idea was to make the bonus disc a DVD
I thought about that too. R.E.M., another Warners' band, did it with their 2003 re-releases...
Emile Strunz wrote:
Should have gone to Virgin back in 1993 instead of London fucking Records
They'd be on EMI now, the same kind of corporate wankers!
Fac 328 wrote: Mojo.
I feel quite sorry for the band members if they have been conned into thinking the bonus material consists of what was "left off" the albums at the time.
"Dub-vulture" was originally going to be on "Low-life" but it was removed at the last minute?"Beach Buggy" - a "Brotherhood" outtake?"World In Motion (carabinieri mix)" - giving a more in-depth view of Technique???
It would have been a perfectly reasonable statement had tracks like "The Happy One" been included, but this is just laughable.
mark reed wrote:
Brotherhood: Temptation - 1987 Confusion - 1987 True Faith 1963 Subculture - John Robie Version Shellshock - Full 12" Version State Of The Nation Bizarre Love Triangle - 12" Evil Dust Shame Of The Nation Theme A La MGM (everything between the end of Low Life and the start of Technique, including Substance)
Add Confusion Dub 1987 (from FACD193) 
Solitude wrote:
PETER COATES'S BELATED REDEMPTION wrote: Fuck me, some people have too much time on their hands. I will sum this state of affairs up very simply:
THIS IS ALL A LOAD OF STALE RANCID SPUNK AND I AM BORED SHITLESS WITH THIS POX POP GROUP AND THEIR INCREASINGLY TAWDRY "LEGACY".
I thank you.
Happily reported to Mods
I thank you
What the fuck?? 
Oooh, I forgot about that : only about the 16th remix of "Confusion" that's been out.. and "I Don't Care" / "Bizarre Dub Triangle"
Emile Strunz wrote: Cabaret Voltaire's Conform to Deform 3 CD Box Set - one disc of rarities, one disc of rare remixes and a live gig - AND, comprehensive sleeve notes with a nice quote from a certain Bernard Sumner amongst others (AH Wilson, Ralf Hutter, et al)
emile,
you must have a pretty low level of 'tolerance' for what you think is good...
that cabaret voltaire box that you think so greatly of, was missing a ton of mixes, edits, and only had same average live tracks, plus some so-so new remixes of older tracks for filler....i can think of about 20-30 vinyl only tracks they conveniently forgot..
PLEASE STOP looking to other groups for examples of what you consider to be 'good', when in fact they were just poor to average compilations that scratched the surface..
once again leaving the fans with another poor collection...and trying to buy several compilations of 'mixes' to fill in the gaps, and still not being complete..
later -1
