383 replies · 56,426 views
-1 wrote: PLEASE STOP looking to other groups for examples of what you consider to be 'good', when in fact they were just poor to average compilations that scratched the surface..
So, can you actually provide an example of a band (any band?) that has a box set similar to the one you're salivating for???
Monsieur Round & Round wrote:
mark reed wrote:
My other idea was to make the bonus disc a DVD
I thought about that too. R.E.M., another Warners' band, did it with their 2003 re-releases...
If you actually mean the 2005 re-releases: the DVDs include the remastered albums in Dolby 5.1 and DTS (although one of them doesn't have a DTS track - why?), which is good, but no bonus tracks and only little other bonus material (e.g.: the video of Losing my Religion).
But this would have been an interesting option for the NO remasters:
Anyway, this is not going to happen.
My major concern is whether or not we'll get actual remastered versions and not, as was the case with Retro and Singles, pseudo-remasters obtained by filtering and compressing original CD versions.
Just listen to True Faith: the original Substance CD version has got two mastering errors (we hear "I'd sTee de light" at 1'12 et "My morning sTun is the drug" at 2'18). The same flaws can be heard in any subsequent releases of the song (Retro, Singles) although they were said to be remastered! On the contrary, True Faith 94, which is actually a remastered (and slightly remixed) version, doesn't have these flaws.
Unfortunately the original 12" version of True Faith will not be included in the remasters, so we won't be able to use it as a benchmark.
Ben wrote:
Unfortunately the original 12" version of True Faith will not be included in the remasters, so we won't be able to use it as a benchmark.
has anyone converted the DAT of substance to CD yet? do you think it had those issues also?
later -1
-1 wrote:
Emile Strunz wrote: Cabaret Voltaire's Conform to Deform 3 CD Box Set - one disc of rarities, one disc of rare remixes and a live gig - AND, comprehensive sleeve notes with a nice quote from a certain Bernard Sumner amongst others (AH Wilson, Ralf Hutter, et al)
emile,
you must have a pretty low level of 'tolerance' for what you think is good...
that cabaret voltaire box that you think so greatly of, was missing a ton of mixes, edits, and only had same average live tracks, plus some so-so new remixes of older tracks for filler....i can think of about 20-30 vinyl only tracks they conveniently forgot..
PLEASE STOP looking to other groups for examples of what you consider to be 'good', when in fact they were just poor to average compilations that scratched the surface..
once again leaving the fans with another poor collection...and trying to buy several compilations of 'mixes' to fill in the gaps, and still not being complete..
later -1
I'll judge what I think is good, thanks very much. Which is usually based on what I see and hear. The Cabs box, whilst not perfect, had enough curios and enough on there which demonstrated that it was quite unique. (OK, it should have contained more from Code, and that gig didn't capture them at their best, but overall, the package showed that time and effort had been put into it.
Feels like I'm going around in fucking circles here, but once more, the point with referencing these other box sets is that these bands are/were New Order's peers, and they have managed to put something out that looked like thought and care had been put into it, and they didn't contain errors and inconsistencies. This is not about compiling all the mixes - it's about the tracks from certain eras and recording sessions that matter, and packaging them well.
Retro was bollocks and should have been more like Conform to Deform, and this lot of releases also look bollocks.
If anything, I can let friends and family know that they're there, so I don't get some completely pointless Christmas present.
The New Order Remasters - only slightly better than socks or soap on a rope.
Emile Strunz wrote: The Cabs box, whilst not perfect, had enough curios and enough on there which demonstrated that it was quite unique. (OK, it should have contained more from Code, and that gig didn't capture them at their best, but overall, the package showed that time and effort had been put into it.
so, it's ok that the CABS box is not perfect, you should have seen all the complaints on the cabaret voltaire mailing list...
it was a quick/dirty job, that cashed on quickly throwing something together...if that's what you mean by 'unique'..
...but once more, the point with referencing these other box sets is that these bands are/were New Order's peers, and they have managed to put something out that looked like thought and care had been put into it, and they didn't contain errors and inconsistencies. This is not about compiling all the mixes - it's about the tracks from certain eras and recording sessions that matter, and packaging them well.
Cardboard boxset with a 32 pages booklet: each CD comes in a cardboard sleeve and has an individual catalogue number, CVBOX 1.1 to 1.3. Spelling mistakes on box and booklet (Hynotised in lieu of Hypnotised). Track 2.05 is mislabeled "Vocal Mix" while is actually "Strange Mix".
you call that consistent, and without errors?
i have the promos for it, and they have the same mistakes also, and the remix compilations that came out afterwords had errors on them also..
Retro was bollocks and should have been more like Conform to Deform, and this lot of releases also look bollocks.
ok, so you want a boxset/compilation with live tracks that don't showcase the band, is missing mixes from a critical era, and has errors in the tracklistings..
sounds like 'retro' should have been perfect for you..
you don't seem to get it either..
NOBODY HAS PUT OUT A COMPILATION OR BOXSET THAT IS PERFECT/GOOD ENOUGH ....
so STOP EXPECTING NEW ORDER too also....and then you can move on with your life..
later -1
This thread is becoming a little confusing. People are criticising the reissues for including previously released stuff (which they already own) or not including rare stuff, which some people claim they do own and can then make their own CD quality copies.
If these reissues are to be an enhanced version of the original albums, then this has been accomplished.
Nick King wrote:
So, can you actually provide an example of a band (any band?) that has a box set similar to the one you're salivating for???
nick,
i can't, because they don't exist.
EVERY compilation, boxset, and best of, etc, that i've ever bought has mistakes, errors, printing errors, sound flaws, wrong dates, incorrect times, versions, poor printing quality, subpar liner notes, and incomplete tracklistings..
i have a few thousand cd's, and collect a lot of bands (can you tell?), and NOT ONE GROUP has EVER been able to put out something that is complete, finished, or comprehensive..
not even the digital compilations on itunes for U2 or depeche mode, which, even though they include a lot, still are lacking...
i've ALWAYS ended up making my own complete compilations with everything that a group puts out -> compilations, promo's, live tracks, b-sides, mixes, (sometimes dj mixes, if they are official).... and that works for me..
later -1
*ADDED LATER* i looked back at this, and yes it is a pretty harsh statement about the music industry, it's all about money, it's never about the fans, and its always about how to milk people for more..
unfortunate....
if you, Nick, wanted a more practical answer, all i can give you is a percentage... and for me there is only 1 boxset that has come closest to perfection...
it's the promo boxset by kraftwerk, called : 12345678
incredible job of remastering 8 albums used original artwork for albums renamed 'electric cafe' -> 'techno pop' very minimal, its just the album tracks
never got commercially released (only 500 copies) cost a crazy amount of money the average/interested fan will probably never hear it its only in english (i would have preferred german)
and even with those issues, most of which aren't the bands fault...it's still near perfection for me.
why? because that was the whole point of the band, it was just about the albums, and the tracks, thats it. and that's all you get.....
unfair? yes, i guess thats what happens when it's my favorite band...... but really, it does match their aesthetic, mentality, and minimalist viewpoint that has defined them from day 1...
could they have stuffed mixes/unreleased tracks/extras? no, because that would have gone against the point of the package, and has never been a focus for them.. could they have put alternate language versions? no, because they would released different language versions in different countries..
everytime i try to criticize the package, i can't find a mistake in it..so i gave up, and accepted it..
If these reissues are to be an enhanced version of the original albums, then this has been accomplished.
Yep, and that's all they were intended to do.
Now if everyone complaining about them could focus a little on what they WOULD like to see in the future perhaps you could spell it out on here. So far I'm getting a really confused and varied picture of what actually would be appreciated in the way of archive releases.
it's the promo boxset by kraftwerk, called : 12345678
Can't say I completely agree, they have messed about with the artwork of the albums in an attempt to re-write their history (is 'Electric Cafe' really now the same as the aborted 'Techno Pop'?), I am surprised they didn't also erase Wolfgang and Karl from the sleeves of the other albums.
It's also the second attempt to release remastered reworked albums as back in '97 there was briefly on the schedules a double disc of Man Machine with the German versions and other tracks on disc 2. Like this box set it never came out.
johnny james wrote:
it's the promo boxset by kraftwerk, called : 12345678
Can't say I completely agree, they have messed about with the artwork of the albums in an attempt to re-write their history (is 'Electric Cafe' really now the same as the aborted 'Techno Pop'?), I am surprised they didn't also erase Wolfgang and Karl from the sleeves of the other albums.
actually they did (sort of) , on the 'tour de france soundtracks'..(if you compare it to the original 'tour de france' single releases)... but if you are 'strict' person, then it IS the same as the official releases
revisionist history.... what can you do?
i guess i could print a minature reproduction of the 'original' cover, and use that instead..
but like i said, that's pretty minor, compared to the music..
it always comes down to music in the end, even if they put it in generic unmarked brown cardboard sleeves, (or just plain unmarked white paper, which most promos come in) i wouldn't be happy, but at least i would still get it for the tracks..
this is an amazing package considering its a promo, and like i said, it blows away a ton of 'official' releases from plenty of other groups in its attention to detail, execution, and sound quality..
later -1
Ah yes, the Kraftwerk boxset - am extremely tempted by that (it's currently at around 300 quid from a second-hand shop 
) - if I didn't have to save a bit for the Krakow trip (3 x Kraftwerk gigs in 3 days), I might have just gone for it! :)
I guess that I would be happy with either a future boxset (unlikely), or everything released digitally (it's money for old rope, and if they sell it via their own website over the thieving bastards known as iTunes, then they'd make a lot more money out of it for basically bugger all overlay)...
With the 808 reissues, apart from the sample-ridden tracks that haven't been cleared, that's the current proposal - release everything else digitally...
Nick King wrote:
Solitude wrote:
PETER COATES'S BELATED REDEMPTION wrote: Fuck me, some people have too much time on their hands. I will sum this state of affairs up very simply:
THIS IS ALL A LOAD OF STALE RANCID SPUNK AND I AM BORED SHITLESS WITH THIS POX POP GROUP AND THEIR INCREASINGLY TAWDRY "LEGACY".
I thank you.
Happily reported to Mods
I thank you
What the fuck??
Have look here
Nick King wrote: Ah yes, the Kraftwerk boxset - am extremely tempted by that (it's currently at around 300 quid from a second-hand shop
I have heard the Kraftwerk promo boxset of CDs and was not impressed. It has been reported that Kraftwerk themselves did not like the mastering quality (too hot) and canned the full release. I prefer the original Kraftwerk CDs or even better original vinyl. Always admired Kraftwerk's restraint in releasing stuff. Despite a near 40 year career their available catalogue is nicely streamlined. They really should rerelease "Ralf und Florian" though!
A pity New Order don't exercise similar quality control on their own releases - "Singles" is probably one of the all time worst mastering jobs in history. With this track record I don't hold out much hope for the remasters sound quality. As for the bonus Cds it's just lowest common denominater stuff. I'm sure London's strategy is to make these Remasters appeal to the average man in the street - "oh the bonus has Blue Monday on it I've heard of that better buy it". London are probably correct in thinking they will sell more Cds this way (rather than putting out a disc of obscure rarities only sort by dedicated fans). Can't say I blame London in some ways - New Order surely haven't brought in the sales they expected when they signed them back in 1993.
Adam Tate wrote:
Nick King wrote: Ah yes, the Kraftwerk boxset - am extremely tempted by that (it's currently at around 300 quid from a second-hand shop
I have heard the Kraftwerk promo boxset of CDs and was not impressed. It has been reported that Kraftwerk themselves did not like the mastering quality (too hot) and canned the full release. I prefer the original Kraftwerk CDs or even better original vinyl. Always admired Kraftwerk's restraint in releasing stuff. Despite a near 40 year career their available catalogue is nicely streamlined. They really should rerelease "Ralf und Florian" though!
A pity New Order don't exercise similar quality control on their own releases - "Singles" is probably one of the all time worst mastering jobs in history. With this track record I don't hold out much hope for the remasters sound quality. As for the bonus Cds it's just lowest common denominater stuff. I'm sure London's strategy is to make these Remasters appeal to the average man in the street - "oh the bonus has Blue Monday on it I've heard of that better buy it". London are probably correct in thinking they will sell more Cds this way (rather than putting out a disc of obscure rarities only sort by dedicated fans). Can't say I blame London in some ways - New Order surely haven't brought in the sales they expected when they signed them back in 1993.
I'm sure you've probably hit the nail on the head there... And, yup, your average punter will delight at having Blue Monday/Temptation on the bonus CD's...
Ah well! :)
Adam Tate wrote:
I have heard the Kraftwerk promo boxset of CDs and was not impressed. It has been reported that Kraftwerk themselves did not like the mastering quality (too hot) and canned the full release. I prefer the original Kraftwerk CDs or even better original vinyl. Always admired Kraftwerk's restraint in releasing stuff. Despite a near 40 year career their available catalogue is nicely streamlined. They really should rerelease "Ralf und Florian" though!
show me EXACTLY 1 reference to where it was reported. and then you might have some credibility....
yeah, fine, YOUR preference for the old, hissy, subpar originals is ok.... i'll take the new digital versions any day...you say you've 'heard' these versions, do you own them? have you listened to them many times? i have, on different sound systems, with headphones, on professional speakers etc... there is NO distortion, no clipping, no flattened maxed out levels...
and yes i have those, computerworld was the very first cd i ever bought, months before i even had a cd-player, when cd's first came out....
i have all the original vinlys in german/english, and all the cds in german/english also.. so i know what those sound like also...
do you think a group like Kraftwerk would let a product out if it didn't have their stamp of approval on it? (even endless remixes of expo2000, and aerodynamik)...
NO WAY..... they were completely involved in it, just like they are with the new 2cd best of, i haven't compared those versions to the originals yet, but some of those tracks are probably remastered also..
there were other roadblocks in the release of the remasters, sound quality was not one of them.... in fact they were planning to release all of them in SACD format.... like they did with maximum minimum...
i think you still proved my point about how great the kraftwerk boxset is, by the attention and detail, and quality of it... whether you prefer a less detailed, subpar version to listen to doesn't detract from that.
later -1
-1 wrote:
Adam Tate wrote:
I have heard the Kraftwerk promo boxset of CDs and was not impressed. It has been reported that Kraftwerk themselves did not like the mastering quality (too hot) and canned the full release. I prefer the original Kraftwerk CDs or even better original vinyl. Always admired Kraftwerk's restraint in releasing stuff. Despite a near 40 year career their available catalogue is nicely streamlined. They really should rerelease "Ralf und Florian" though!
show me EXACTLY 1 reference to where it was reported. and then you might have some credibility....
yeah, fine, YOUR preference for the old, hissy, subpar originals is ok.... i'll take the new digital versions any day...you say you've 'heard' these versions, do you own them? have you listened to them many times? i have, on different sound systems, with headphones, on professional speakers etc... there is NO distortion, no clipping, no flattened maxed out levels...
and yes i have those, computerworld was the very first cd i ever bought, months before i even had a cd-player, when cd's first came out....
i have all the original vinlys in german/english, and all the cds in german/english also.. so i know what those sound like also...
do you think a group like Kraftwerk would let a product out if it didn't have their stamp of approval on it? (even endless remixes of expo2000, and aerodynamik)...
NO WAY..... they were completely involved in it, just like they are with the new 2cd best of, i haven't compared those versions to the originals yet, but some of those tracks are probably remastered also..
there were other roadblocks in the release of the remasters, sound quality was not one of them.... in fact they were planning to release all of them in SACD format.... like they did with maximum minimum...
i think you still proved my point about how great the kraftwerk boxset is, by the attention and detail, and quality of it... whether you prefer a less detailed, subpar version to listen to doesn't detract from that.
later -1
I am not going to try to prove that the reason Kraftwerk stopped the release was down to sound quality. After all who really knows what thought processes go on within the shadowy confines of the Kling Klang studio.
I have owned the original vinyl of all Kraftwerk albums since the 1970s. I then bought the CDs on release in the early 80s. I have listened at length to a borrowed copy of the box on an audiophile standard HiFi through speakers and Sennheiser HD650 headphones. I wanted to try out this expensive box out before making a purchase I regretted. Frankly I didn't think it was improvement at all - louder yes - but squashed dynamics I'm afraid. The original vinyl destroys the box and the 80s CDs in my opinion.
I don't want to knock your opinion -1 you obviously enjoy the box. Different folks like different aspects of sound quality. I am very much of the Steve Hoffman school of mastering taste.
Adam Tate wrote: I am not going to try to prove that the reason Kraftwerk stopped the release was down to sound quality. After all who really knows what thought processes go on within the shadowy confines of the Kling Klang studio.
I have owned the original vinyl of all Kraftwerk albums since the 1970s. I then bought the CDs on release in the early 80s. I have listened at length to a borrowed copy of the box on an audiophile standard HiFi through speakers and Sennheiser HD650 headphones. I wanted to try out this expensive box out before making a purchase I regretted. Frankly I didn't think it was improvement at all - louder yes - but squashed dynamics I'm afraid. The original vinyl destroys the box and the 80s CDs in my opinion.
I don't want to knock your opinion -1 you obviously enjoy the box. Different folks like different aspects of sound quality. I am very much of the Steve Hoffman school of mastering taste.
i agree, we'll never know why they weren't released, but when you claim it's due to sound quality, thats why i questioned it...especially, since WE DO know that kraftwerk are fanatics when it comes to releases, and sound quality..
what do you think about 'heavy vinyl' remasters? i've seen a lot of them for kraftwerk albums, but don't have them yet. don't you think those would be better than 30 year old vinyl pressings? ...
.... also, my vinyl versions weren't pristine... do you know if the japanese/german versions are better than the poor US/american pressings?
lastly, i don't have an awesome turntable anymore, i had a friend that had good needles, and denon brand, but i never digitized my vinyl using it...
that's why i don't think the older versions hold up...
thanks for replying..
back to new order................ and on a related note, is there any talk of new vinyl remasters for any new order albums?
later -1
-1 wrote:
Emile Strunz wrote: The Cabs box, whilst not perfect, had enough curios and enough on there which demonstrated that it was quite unique. (OK, it should have contained more from Code, and that gig didn't capture them at their best, but overall, the package showed that time and effort had been put into it.
so, it's ok that the CABS box is not perfect, you should have seen all the complaints on the cabaret voltaire mailing list...
it was a quick/dirty job, that cashed on quickly throwing something together...if that's what you mean by 'unique'..
...but once more, the point with referencing these other box sets is that these bands are/were New Order's peers, and they have managed to put something out that looked like thought and care had been put into it, and they didn't contain errors and inconsistencies. This is not about compiling all the mixes - it's about the tracks from certain eras and recording sessions that matter, and packaging them well.
Cardboard boxset with a 32 pages booklet: each CD comes in a cardboard sleeve and has an individual catalogue number, CVBOX 1.1 to 1.3. Spelling mistakes on box and booklet (Hynotised in lieu of Hypnotised). Track 2.05 is mislabeled "Vocal Mix" while is actually "Strange Mix".
you call that consistent, and without errors?
i have the promos for it, and they have the same mistakes also, and the remix compilations that came out afterwords had errors on them also..
Retro was bollocks and should have been more like Conform to Deform, and this lot of releases also look bollocks.
ok, so you want a boxset/compilation with live tracks that don't showcase the band, is missing mixes from a critical era, and has errors in the tracklistings..
sounds like 'retro' should have been perfect for you..
you don't seem to get it either..
NOBODY HAS PUT OUT A COMPILATION OR BOXSET THAT IS PERFECT/GOOD ENOUGH ....
so STOP EXPECTING NEW ORDER too also....and then you can move on with your life..
later -1
Let's agree to disagree then, although it's all about the effort put into a particular project. The Cabs felt (for me anyway) that a bit of thought had been put into the package. New Order's doesn't. That's my opinion.
And do you ever get out mate?
Nick King wrote:
Solitude wrote: Have look here
Ah yes, the 'community standards'. The last refuge of the intellectually vacuous and emotionally brain-dead. This is what passes as maturity round here. Hallelujah.
-1 wrote:
what do you think about 'heavy vinyl' remasters? i've seen a lot of them for kraftwerk albums, but don't have them yet. don't you think those would be better than 30 year old vinyl pressings? ...
.... also, my vinyl versions weren't pristine... do you know if the japanese/german versions are better than the poor US/american pressings?
lastly, i don't have an awesome turntable anymore, i had a friend that had good needles, and denon brand, but i never digitized my vinyl using it...
that's why i don't think the older versions hold up...
thanks for replying..
back to new order................ and on a related note, is there any talk of new vinyl remasters for any new order albums?
later -1
I haven't listened to very many different Kraftwerk vinyl versions but I still have my original UK vinyl which sounds superb. Same with Joy Division my 1979 UK Factory UP absolutely slays any available CD. Don't know about New Order vinyl reissues but again the original vinyl is fine.
One of these days I going to have to transfer all my vinyl to needledrop CDs. It's a shame when you have to resort to needledrops - the record companies need to take note. Mind you happens with the best of them - just look at the shambles that are the official Beatles CDs - been listening to needledrops of these for years.
Adam Tate wrote: It's a shame when you have to resort to needledrops - the record companies need to take note. Mind you happens with the best of them - just look at the shambles that are the official Beatles CDs - been listening to needledrops of these for years.
Roll on 2009. 
Ben wrote:
Monsieur Round & Round wrote:
mark reed wrote:
My other idea was to make the bonus disc a DVD
I thought about that too. R.E.M., another Warners' band, did it with their 2003 re-releases...
If you actually mean the 2005 re-releases: the DVDs include the remastered albums in Dolby 5.1 and DTS (although one of them doesn't have a DTS track - why?), which is good, but no bonus tracks and only little other bonus material (e.g.: the video of Losing my Religion).
But this would have been an interesting option for the NO remasters:
- All 5 remastered albums packaged as a CD + a bonus DVD containing a 5.1 mix of the album (and, possibly, a few rare or unreleased tracks)
- An expanded, remastered Substance double or triple CD or single DVD containing all original 12" mixes and B-sides
Anyway, this is not going to happen.
My major concern is whether or not we'll get actual remastered versions and not, as was the case with Retro and Singles, pseudo-remasters obtained by filtering and compressing original CD versions.
Just listen to True Faith: the original Substance CD version has got two mastering errors (we hear "I'd sTee de light" at 1'12 et "My morning sTun is the drug" at 2'18). The same flaws can be heard in any subsequent releases of the song (Retro, Singles) although they were said to be remastered! On the contrary, True Faith 94, which is actually a remastered (and slightly remixed) version, doesn't have these flaws.
Unfortunately the original 12" version of True Faith will not be included in the remasters, so we won't be able to use it as a benchmark.
Yes, I meant the 2005 re-releases, my mistake. The "In time" compilation was released in 2003, hence my confusion. I know there's no chance of such a release for the New Order remasters, but my point is... seeing as there's no hidden gems, no previously unreleased tracks to unearth, wouldn't it be better to have a bonus DVD (and I mean bonus, ie FREE!!!!!!!!) featuring some live clips, TV appearances or the odd gig (I'm thinking PFD would make a great second disc in the Low-Life package...)? But I'm just a miserable bastard, what do I fucking know?
Well, I just spent time writing a nice, thoughtful post only to have it disappear into the ether as soon as I hit 'preview'. The webmaster should really sort that out - supremely frustrating.
I'm fairly happy with these reissues. I'll be buying them as I no longer have these albums - all stolen.
2 points:
-Why have the 1987 version of Temptation on Movement?? That's just plain daffy to me, I don't get it. I actually suspect it's an error or something.
-Why have the Tall Paul remix of True Faith on Brotherhood and call it True Dub? Not only does it not make any sense, but it's straight-up false advertising! Again, that is so far in the loony end I actually suspect it's an error or mis-reporting of some kind. Makes NO sense.
Most of the people here seem to be perpetual whiner miseryguts who would complain about anything. Some of the posts here are unintentionally hilarious, like an actor doing a pisstake of a trainspotter. Just unbelievable!
FtotheDoubleOff wrote:
-Why have the 1987 version of Temptation on Movement?? That's just plain daffy to me, I don't get it. I actually suspect it's an error or something.
I did not know that this as re-recorded for Substance until about a year after I bought it. It doesn't sound out of place, but chronologically, if you know about it, like most NO fans, it is.
But i'm not that worried about it. Just like the people complaining about the one missing drum beat from Blue Monday... I can sleep at night without it.
Besides, there a plenty of beats in BM anyway
FtotheDoubleOff wrote: Well, I just spent time writing a nice, thoughtful post only to have it disappear into the ether as soon as I hit 'preview'. The webmaster should really sort that out - supremely frustrating.
it happened to me too, if you take your time, or are writing a long post, i think there's a time limit?
1 do it in a text file first, and paste it into the reply box
2 make a copy of your reply, before you hit submit
i have yet to lose a post ever again, when i'm careful..
later -1
