Mapping The Definitive Editions - Brotherhood

It could be that they adopted MIDI for their instruments at the earlier time, but their use of computers as the MIDI controller came in later.

GotBlueEyes wrote:

Debaser wrote:

Weird that they are making a big deal of the Midi thing. In PH's autobiography, he says that Low-life was where they first adopted midi

The album (Low-Life) was recorded normally using a 24-track Studer tape machine and our own great collection of equipment, using pretty much the same stuff we used on Power, Corruption & Lies. The only big differences here were the adoption of MIDI technology and the use of SMPTE Timecode.

Likewise SM first mentions it after the technical problems at the 1984 BBC Live session just before Low-Life

Needless to say from that fateful day forward the Prophet sequencer’s days were numbered. There was this hot new thing called MIDI coming out that was today’s future. The answer to my prayers. Some of the more tedious ones anyway.

You won't be surprised to learn that Bernard doesn't mention midi at all in his book

After hearing Hooky recycling various JD/NO basslines for various Brotherhood songs, and the calamity that was to become Broken Promise, Bernard rushed to A1 Music in Manchester and bought the Yamaha QX1 sequencer and the rest is history. 😂

Mr Discography wrote: Question for Johnny James. I've always wondered what the story was behind the Stephen Hague remix(es) and when they were made. Were they recorded at the time of 'Brotherhood', or commissioned specifically for 'Married To The Mob'? As there's a 12" remix, were they ever planning to release (or re-released) this version as a single? Was it solely Stephen Hague's work or were the band involved (was never 100% sure if it features a different vocal from Barney to the album version)?

What's the history of these versions? Cheers.

Any feedback on the above question Johnny James?

Thanks

Mr Discography wrote:

Mr Discography wrote: Question for Johnny James. I've always wondered what the story was behind the Stephen Hague remix(es) and when they were made. Were they recorded at the time of 'Brotherhood', or commissioned specifically for 'Married To The Mob'? As there's a 12" remix, were they ever planning to release (or re-released) this version as a single? Was it solely Stephen Hague's work or were the band involved (was never 100% sure if it features a different vocal from Barney to the album version)?

What's the history of these versions? Cheers.

Any feedback on the above question Johnny James?

Thanks

I don't really know the details, except that the tape was dated 1988, so clearly separate to Brotherhood. It was probably done specifically for Married To The Mob.

Johnny James wrote:

I don't really know the details, except that the tape was dated 1988, so clearly separate to Brotherhood. It was probably done specifically for Married To The Mob.

Interesting, so after they first worked with Hague on 'True Faith/1963'.

Mr Discography wrote:

Johnny James wrote:

I don't really know the details, except that the tape was dated 1988, so clearly separate to Brotherhood. It was probably done specifically for Married To The Mob.

Interesting, so after they first worked with Hague on 'True Faith/1963'.

Wonder if there was a plan to re-release 'Bizarre Love Triangle ' using the Stephen Hague remixes as a follow-up single to support 'Substance' in 1988, maybe until 'Blue Monday 1988' came along? Definitely a question for Steve or Barney at some point!

Mr Discography wrote: Wonder if there was a plan to re-release 'Bizarre Love Triangle ' using the Stephen Hague remixes as a follow-up single to support 'Substance' in 1988, maybe until 'Blue Monday 1988' came along? Definitely a question for Steve or Barney at some point!

Married To The Mob came out a full year after Substance, and BLT was the single just prior to True Faith...on the other hand, Factory was hurting for money, so who knows.

I find it interesting that Stephen Hague was remixing U.K artists for American soundtracks 1987-1988, and producing U.K synth artists almost exclusively at that time.

50poundnote wrote:

Mr Discography wrote: Wonder if there was a plan to re-release 'Bizarre Love Triangle ' using the Stephen Hague remixes as a follow-up single to support 'Substance' in 1988, maybe until 'Blue Monday 1988' came along? Definitely a question for Steve or Barney at some point!

Married To The Mob came out a full year after Substance, and BLT was the single just prior to True Faith...on the other hand, Factory was hurting for money, so who knows.

Wouldn't have been the first time a song that wasn't a hit the first time got re-released for another attempt - particularly after the cult status the Shep 12" mix got in certain countries and clubs, and after the success of 'Substance'. Would love to know the real reason Stephen Hague got paid to make a new single version and 12" mix. Unlikely it was just for a soundtrack album when they could've reused the album or previous single version.

Mr Discography wrote: Would love to know the real reason Stephen Hague got paid to make a new single version and 12" mix. Unlikely it was just for a soundtrack album when they could've reused the album or previous single version.

Yep, This.

Mr Discography wrote:

Wonder if there was a plan to re-release 'Bizarre Love Triangle ' using the Stephen Hague remixes .... Definitely a question for Steve or Barney at some point!

The question needs to be asked (of Mr Morris, cos Bernard won't remember or care) during any upcoming promotion for the box set.

I'm satisfied with the answer from Johnny James, actually.

The band had a good relationship with the film's director, Jonathan Demme, and presubably Hague was happy to have a go at a chart friendly version after it's relatively disappointing '86 showing, especially after his success with "True Faith". Shep's remix that was so popular on the dance floors was a bit harsh to be radio friendly, especially in the U.S. I think the spoken word bit in the video (which I personally like) probably threw people off also.

Pretty decent. Nice Hooky bass at end.

Glad that we've finally had another demo that features vocals.

Although I've enjoyed the demos on the last two box sets, they have limited 'replay value' for me. I need vocals to be present to justify repeated listenings. Instrumental demos are more 'curios' to me..

I think we were just spoilt with those brilliant demos on the first LP.

Weirdly, the channel appears to have now posted the same song with a different background image an hour or so ago.

Although the first version is still playable, it doesn't appear in the list of videos for the channel.

perspexorange wrote: Weirdly, the channel appears to have now posted the same song with a different background image an hour or so ago.

Although the first version is still playable, it doesn't appear in the list of videos for the channel.

Interesting to see in the image of the master reel that there were 4 takes listed (one instrumental). I wonder if they were actually different full takes (ie live performances) or just the same track with different mixes

Most likely the former (else they would have listed them as mixes, not takes?), in which case I wonder how different they were?

GotBlueEyes wrote:

perspexorange wrote: Weirdly, the channel appears to have now posted the same song with a different background image an hour or so ago.

Although the first version is still playable, it doesn't appear in the list of videos for the channel.

Interesting to see in the image of the master reel that there were 4 takes listed (one instrumental). I wonder if they were actually different full takes (ie live performances) or just the same track with different mixes

Most likely the former (else they would have listed them as mixes, not takes?), in which case I wonder how different they were?

really enjoying the demo.. but yeah, if there were other takes, would want to hear those also.

later | || | ne gative1

Just over a week to release can’t wait - can I echo “perspexorange” thanks, to the people have been involved in these Boxsets, very much appreciated without these it would have been fairly quiet in the forum these last few years.

The overall beauty of the boxsets are the main reason for buying but the CD extras is also the main bonus I look forward to. There looks to be some great stuff on Brotherhood and most tracks look like they will be worth listening too over and over (unlike some of them demos as others have said). However as usual it leaves you wanting more:

Let’s Go - I would have thought across Brotherhood & Lowlife we’d have a definitive collection for this track

BLT - vocal demo with extra lines / alternative lyrics (obviously didn’t do a demo for this one - could the live version have been used?)

Would have loved to have some demo’s of WOL and Weirdo!

It would be a shame if the fans never get to hear some of the other rehearsal ./ demos tapes but appreciate the expense / time these would consume.

Couple of questions:

Would anyone be able to share the ‘XFM's Brotherhood 25th anniversary episode’ with me please, would love to have another listen before the release.

Record and CD sleeve look’s like a simple metalised board - was the original version the same or was it more of an actual metal?

Like No Other wrote:

Would anyone be able to share the ‘XFM's Brotherhood 25th anniversary episode’ with me please, would love to have another listen before the release.

Pretty sure I have this. Give me until tomorrow night and I’ll dig it out (unless someone gets to it before me).

Really glad there are others enjoying these releases. Really looking forward to this set. Also, it’s ‘Technique’ on the horizon, which is my favourite LP by any band. Cannot wait.

Only just got round yesterday to preorder the box and BLT 12" ( my orginal 1986 copy long gone). Through Amazon but i won't receive til 26th Nov apparently. Maybe because i've left it late?

perspexorange wrote:

Like No Other wrote:

Would anyone be able to share the ‘XFM's Brotherhood 25th anniversary episode’ with me please, would love to have another listen before the release.

Pretty sure I have this. Give me until tomorrow night and I’ll dig it out (unless someone gets to it before me).

Here you go:

https://we.tl/t-ntvUApyPTd

Link probably good for seven days.

Fotz wrote: Only just got round yesterday to preorder the box and BLT 12" ( my orginal 1986 copy long gone). Through Amazon but i won't receive til 26th Nov apparently. Maybe because i've left it late?

yes, i've just ordered it also.

although, there were 2 stores, walmart and somewhere else selling it for $110 i think.

however, i went with the store, because i got all three 12 inch singles, and saved on shipping. no t shirt this time around or posters, oh well.

lets see if it gets here on time or not.

later || | | | ne gative 1

Interesting Broken Promise and Paradise instrumental variations.

Edit: Looks like Andy posted this in the social media thread first. My bad.

perspexorange wrote:

Interesting Broken Promise and Paradise instrumental variations.

Edit: Looks like Andy posted this in the social media thread first. My bad.

It's better than neither of us posting. I'm not always sure where these things belong.

perspexorange wrote:

perspexorange wrote:

Like No Other wrote:

Would anyone be able to share the ‘XFM's Brotherhood 25th anniversary episode’ with me please, would love to have another listen before the release.

Pretty sure I have this. Give me until tomorrow night and I’ll dig it out (unless someone gets to it before me).

Here you go:

https://we.tl/t-ntvUApyPTd

Link probably good for seven days.

Thanks so much, look forward to listening to this!

Hmm, well should this be in NO Spotting or here? In case we have members who don't bother with NO Spotting, maybe it's worth putting this here too. Hooky doing some Brotherhood promotion while the rest of them are gigging on Mexico. How nice of him!

[TWITTER]1858541410024116519[/TWITTER]

For people who are geo-blocked:

Hooky: "The box set has loads of extras on it". Then he mentions the Led Zep box set that "inspired" these box sets. "It sort of makes you sadder about the way we've ended up. We're in two camps and the record company has to dance between both..."

Craig Charles: "Do you think it [box sets] might lead to a thawing of relationships between the two sides?" Hooky "Eh, No...that divide is like the Grand Canyon + 25". "We weren't having a great time then, but we were working together... I am immensely proud of all the music...Me and Barney were jostling for position like two boxers...Me, Steve and Barney were still a great songwriting partnership". "it seemed quie obvious to split the tracks up (Electronic & Rock) ...very much the same way me and Barney were split". "When we (Pottsy & I) came to play the sequenced tracks live, they became my favourites!". Craig Charles: "Are you saying Barney was right then?" Hooky: "No! ...Get outta here!" Charles: "I heard you saying Barney was right!" Hooky: "I think he was right to split them (the tracks on Brotherhood), I don't think he was right that the band should be all electronic."

Re: State Of The Nation "We went to Japan: Press interviews by day...recording by night for five days..." "We were recording at night, the engineeers in the studio were falling asleep on the desk...We taught them a few things. The studio they had 'ripped off' was a Californian studio (Eagles), it was very dead, it wasn't very live sounding. We did the drums in the stairwell...we soldiered on and we did get AIIWIW and SOTN finished".

The SOTN demo gets a play and then they discuss PH&TL, and Jack playing with the Pumpkins.

Listening to the SOTN demo again here, I find myself agreeing with you Perspex:

perspexorange wrote: Pretty decent. Nice Hooky bass at end.

Debaser wrote: For people who are geo-blocked:

"Me, Steve and Barney were still a great songwriting partnership".

I find this upsetting. Writing Gillian out of the history of the band.

Obviously, I don't know what happened during the writing of this LP or others. Maybe Gillian didn't have too much input; or maybe she contributed loads. Who knows? Certainly not me.

However, one thing I've always loved about the band is the fact that all four names appear on the writing credits.

It's natural that certain songs will have had greater input from individual members from time to time. But, if you look at the New Order credits, you'd never know. Each member gets equally mention. It felt like they were all 'in it together'. A team. A group of close friends. A family even.

Now... I don't know what I think.

perspexorange wrote: I find this upsetting. Writing Gillian out of the history of the band.

As do I. Was it Retro Pop magazine that did a story about the recording of the True Faith /1963 single a few years back? Stephen Hague talked about how prepared Gillian was, that she had all her parts written out and was very professional. I also think about the clip from Girl In A Band where Gillian talks about Hook not knowing how to tune his own bass.

It's no wonder to me that the best album they've made since the '80s was Music Complete, and heralded Gillian's return. She's always been their secret weapon.

perspexorange wrote:

Debaser wrote: For people who are geo-blocked:

"Me, Steve and Barney were still a great songwriting partnership".

Obviously, I don't know what happened during the writing of this LP or others. Maybe Gillian didn't have too much input; or maybe she contributed loads. Who knows? Certainly not me.

Me neither. I agree with you on this.

We know from the Technique Demo tape that one of the tracks had a title of "Gillian's acc one". I seem to recall from the Technique twitter listening party, Gillian talked about getting her bits in when the others weren't in the studio. My understanding is that Avalanche on Republic was really an O2 track (correct me if I'm mistaken). And there was talk that Hook/Morris/Gilbert were coming up with stuff for Republic until Bernard came in and turned it all on its head - or something. And yes as £50 mentioned, Gillian had some keyboard parts ready to go for TF. But prior to 87/88?...

As far as I can tell, Gillian's input increased very slowly during her time with NO. I think even Tony said they brought Gillian in to "help out". I can't argue with what Hooky has said. After all he's talking about the three remaining members of Joy Division. Unless we think that JD were A) only good cos of Ian or B) not good at all, then it's not unreasonable to say that the remaining members of JD did have a "great songwriting partnership". As the band have pointed out themselves, you can hear them improving together over JD's short lifespan. I think they had an alachemy or a "magic" as JD, and it's not unfair to say the same about them when they changed name to NO. Did Gillian contribute much to Brotherhood's songwriting? We don't know. And because of that, I'm not upset by Hooky's comments. Although at the same time I'm aware that some of his past comments (pre-settlement) about Gillian were...less than generous.

perspexorange wrote:

I find this upsetting. Writing Gillian out of the history of the band.

I'm not as big a Depeche Mode fan as you Perspex, but I recall people saying that DM were lucky to have another songwriter (Martin Gore) waiting to take over when Vince Clarke left. Quite often a band only has one or maybe two songwriters. I think it's far more rare for all members to be equally adept. I think Bernard has made it clear in recent years that BLT is very much his baby.

Even Lennon & McCartney said that often one of them was actually the primary songwriter but they would put both of their names in the credits anyway. Here's Paul conjuring up Get Back (watch George yawning). John walks in near the end of the clip.

perspexorange wrote:

Now... I don't know what I think.

I think they're like every other band - not everything was equal in the songwriting. And y'know sometimes complete democracy on songwriting can be a bad thing. Songs with multiple writing credits are often quite bland or boring (see various boyband/girlband songs, or those collabs you get of various RnB and Hip Hop stars.) Too many cooks...

Debaser wrote: Although at the same time I'm aware that some of his past comments (pre-settlement) about Gillian were...less than generous.

I think this is the problem. It's difficult to separate statements like "Me, Steve and Barney were still a great songwriting partnership", which dismisses Gillian by omission, from previous statements which openly criticised her contributions. The words he choses here are deliberate and this isn't the first time he's said something similar.

You're correct in that there probably was one or two prime contributors to the song-writing tasks. However, none of us outsiders know exactly what anyone's contribution was from record to record. I just liked the fact that, previously, no one was elevated above the others. As far as we were concerned, at least officially, they were all equal songwriters.

I wish that Hooky had just said something like 'we were a great songwriting team'. He would be saying the same thing; just without criticising someone's contribution.

David Quantick review:

SuperDeluxeEdition.com

Amazon in the U.S. currently has it for $109.99, but the link is not easy to find...I got this from the Super Deluxe Edition website.

Brotherhood Definitive Edition