Mapping The Definitive Editions - Brotherhood

steinomite wrote: Johnny James - Hope you don't mind the questions, but are/were there no embryonic or demo forms of either "True Faith" or "1963" available?

Also, will either the sleeves for either the CD or LP have a metallic finish like the original FACD and FACT editions?

-Mike

We are doing the metallic thing, and hopefully it will work better than it did originally (where it seemed to wear badly).

There were problems with the rehearsal/demos tapes this time. They need expensive and time consuming treatment to get anything off them. There wasn't time. We may yet do it for archiving purposes, but I'm not sure at this point.

50poundnote wrote:

Jcp7 wrote: Salvation in full

What is Shellshock AOR?

Wondered if this is close to the "standard" version that appeared on the Pretty In Pink soundtrack, but never appeared on a Factory release? They might have meant OST (original soundtrack) instead of AOR (album-oriented rock)...or it could be a version mixed for the American market, i.e. turn up the guitars and downplay the synths?

It's similar to the Pretty In Pink version, but a different edit, same running time weirdly. It also has the extra lines.

Excellent! Many thanks for the answers, JJ!

Debaser wrote:

Jcp7 wrote:

What is Shellshock AOR?

Well that normally stands for Adult Oriented Rock. Is there a rock version of Shellshock? Lots of Bernard guitar on there perhaps?

So we've got NINE previously unreleased tracks on the second disc. That should be fun.

[Every Little Counts (Full Length) has me intrigued. Some people don't iike this track but I've always loved it - other than perhaps the pig/zoo lyric. Can't wait for this.

Blue Monday 1988 (Michael Johnson 12” Remix): have we not already heard this via one of those leaked cassette things? I used to have that cassette stuff on my hard drive but maybe I lost it when my last PC bit the dust... John "Tokes" Potoker did the A-side version of BM'88. Beach Buggy was the vocal-free mix by Michael Johnson on the B-side (depending on territory). So this is presumably similar to Beach Buggy but with vocals? I thought we might get some of the other BM88 'cassette' versions.

Bizarre Love Triangle (Stephen Hague 12” Remix) -why on earth didn't they put this on the other side of the Shep remix 12" at the time? Maybe it's crap? [EDIT:oh it probably didn't exist yet!]

PS: I wrote this post about 5 hours ago before Mr Discography's post #70 appeared (but the forum insisted it was SPAM) so y'know...similar comments from others in the mean time.

I've always heard of AOR standing for Album Oriented Rock, as a radio programming format. Meaning not relient on singles charts. It morphed into "Classic Rock" as new rock music began losing its battle against more popular genres. I did google AOR and saw the other definitions, so there's no one right answer. But I am curious as to why this mix is referred to this way. Johnny says it's a "different edit", but is being coy about how it might actually sound different.

I could be wrong, but "Every Little Counts" (Full Length) may just be the standard version without the needle scratch ending.

Johnny James wrote:

50poundnote wrote:

Jcp7 wrote: Salvation in full

What is Shellshock AOR?

Wondered if this is close to the "standard" version that appeared on the Pretty In Pink soundtrack, but never appeared on a Factory release? They might have meant OST (original soundtrack) instead of AOR (album-oriented rock)...or it could be a version mixed for the American market, i.e. turn up the guitars and downplay the synths?

It's similar to the Pretty In Pink version, but a different edit, same running time weirdly. It also has the extra lines.

Thanks Mr Z. Can you tell us why "AOR", or will that become clear upon release?

Debaser wrote:

Johnny James wrote:

50poundnote wrote:

Jcp7 wrote: Salvation in full

What is Shellshock AOR?

Wondered if this is close to the "standard" version that appeared on the Pretty In Pink soundtrack, but never appeared on a Factory release? They might have meant OST (original soundtrack) instead of AOR (album-oriented rock)...or it could be a version mixed for the American market, i.e. turn up the guitars and downplay the synths?

It's similar to the Pretty In Pink version, but a different edit, same running time weirdly. It also has the extra lines.

Thanks Mr Z. Can you tell us why "AOR", or will that become clear upon release?

I don't think it'll ever become clearer, that was how it was labelled on the tape box. It is very similar to the PIP one.

Johnny James wrote:

steinomite wrote: Johnny James - Hope you don't mind the questions, but are/were there no embryonic or demo forms of either "True Faith" or "1963" available?

Also, will either the sleeves for either the CD or LP have a metallic finish like the original FACD and FACT editions?

-Mike

We are doing the metallic thing, and hopefully it will work better than it did originally (where it seemed to wear badly).

There were problems with the rehearsal/demos tapes this time. They need expensive and time consuming treatment to get anything off them. There wasn't time. We may yet do it for archiving purposes, but I'm not sure at this point.

thanks for the answers.

i hope that they may be available later on digitally or through some other means.

i would pay for them.

later | || | || || ne gative 1

Fotz wrote: Stephen Hague BLT 12" mix, wow, that'll be cool to hear.

negative1 wrote: stephen hagues versions is probably still pretty decent.

Reading about Hague's unreleased extended remix reminded me that back in the late 90s I used to do pub gigs with a female vocalist playing 80s and 90s synthpop and dance tracks. We used to do a version of 'Bizarre Love Triangle' loosely based on Stephen Hague's 'Married To The Mob' version. I actually created my own extended version of it as a bit of fun.

Here's a link to it on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tzdb5tcMLY4&list=PL--rSSPxOptfumKRuqjNCU_yt1wZSMAF6&index=7.

Be interesting to see how similar my extended version is to Stephen Hague's actual extended remix! Still can't believe they've been sitting on this version for 37 years! Or perhaps 30 years - if it was a mix made at the time of 'Bizarre Love Triange-94' for 'The Best Of'.

Mr Discography wrote:

Fotz wrote: Stephen Hague BLT 12" mix, wow, that'll be cool to hear.

negative1 wrote: stephen hagues versions is probably still pretty decent.

Reading about Hague's unreleased extended remix reminded me that back in the late 90s I used to do pub gigs with a female vocalist playing 80s and 90s synthpop and dance tracks. We used to do a version of 'Bizarre Love Triangle' loosely based on Stephen Hague's 'Married To The Mob' version. I actually created my own extended version of it as a bit of fun.

Here's a link to it on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tzdb5tcMLY4&list=PL--rSSPxOptfumKRuqjNCU_yt1wZSMAF6&index=7.

Be interesting to see how similar my extended version is to Stephen Hague's actual extended remix! Still can't believe they've been sitting on this version for 37 years! Or perhaps 30 years - if it was a mix made at the time of 'Bizarre Love Triange-94' for 'The Best Of'.

The link in my previous message was wrong. Should be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tzdb5tcMLY4&list=PL--rSSPxOptfumKRuqjNCU_yt1wZSMAF6.

A message for the Mods: it seems once I've edited a post, if I try to edit it a second time, I get a message "Your Message was rejected because it was detected as SPAM!" Any chance you can change this setting, as it's very frustrating when I just want to carry out a second edit?

Just a handful of comments regarding the CDs first:

Firstly, I'm really excited to hear the two demos. Especially the Shame one. As I mentioned before, I strongly suspect the AIIWIW one is the same as the murky bootleg that's available. Still, if it is, will be good to get a (much) better quality version.

Glad that a couple of the tracks that, in another reality, might've ended up on last year's Substance remaster; namely 'Paradise (Robert Racic Remix)' & 'Evil Dust' have been included. It is appreciated that these haven't been overlooked.

Love that the 'Salvation' tracks are getting an outing too. These are rather splendid tracks and far too good to be languishing on very rare releases. Cool that 'Skullcrusher' is extended. Wonder if 'Let's Go' is the version on the 'Salvation' LP or whether it's the different version from the 'Retro' set.

I agree with others in that 'Every Little Counts' will likely be the track without that skipping 'cold end'.

I look forward to hearing the AOR mix of Shellshock. I know it won't be much different from the PIP version, but that is my favourite mix of Shellshock. It has the extra verse and, unlike, the 12" version (the only other version with that verse), doesn't go on and on and on...

Similarly, the Stephen Hague mix of BLT is by far and away my favourite version. Those 'do do do-s' and the end 'twinkly' bits are sublime. I was pleased that the '94 version kept the latter but was disappointed it didn't retain the former. Will be great to get a hopefully similar, but extended version. In good quality too.

The two instrumentals should be good and I'm looking forward to hearing the Michael Johnson mix of Blue Monday 1988.

As regards the DVDs:

DVD1 will contain quite a bit of 'previously seen' stuff. Specifically 'The Tube', 'Les Enfants du Rock', 'TOTP', 'The Roxy' and (only recently seen by me) the 'Channel One' footage.

The Academy footage is also previously seen. Wonder if they've managed to get a version which doesn't have any of those horrible edits/effects that plagued the VHS release (JJ - can you confirm, please?).

Highlights for this disc will be the previously unseen stuff, i.e. the Steve documentary and that footage from Denon Studios. REALLY looking forward to this.

For me at least, most of the good stuff will be on DVD2.

That GMEX '86 footage (with McCulloch on Ceremony) is probably my most anticipated thing on the whole set.

Video of the Pier '84, Glastonbury '87 and GMEX '88 gigs have been available before on murky bootlegs. Will be nice to get better quality upgrades and (presumably) pro footage of the latter two gigs.

The 'True Faith' footage from 'Rapido' I do have, but in poor quality. So, again, nice to have an upgrade.

Lastly, San Giovanni. Didn't know this gig was filmed. Bonus!

Finally, I just want to say how pleased I am that this project is continuing.

So often, bands 'half arse' their 'deluxe' box sets or only do this for one or two of their LPs. For New Orde, there seems to be a definite plan to release every LP.

Also, I'm thrilled (and that's the correct word) that, on every set so far, there's been a whole host of unexpected (and brilliant) items.

Many thanks to JJ and others for their continuing efforts!

perspexorange wrote:

Wonder if 'Let's Go' is the version on the 'Salvation' LP or whether it's the different version from the 'Retro' set.

Interestingly, the actual version of 'Let's Go' that can be heard in the film is a different version to the one on the 'Salvation' soundtrack album. Wonder if that will ever surface?

Debaser wrote:

negative1 wrote:

but stephen hagues versions is probably still pretty decent.

We should probably post the video/tweet

[TWITTER]1831318233174925822[/TWITTER]

Thanks D. Looks a brief preview of some of the live video footage could be the G-Mex 1986 one? Looks great quality if it is and i'm really looking forward to the vid of that gig. I never made it to that Festival Of The 10th Summer but i do remember being aware of it at the time. Pondered attempting to go but i think it was a bit much financially for me at my then young age. I do wish i'd gone. New Order, The Smiths and The Fall, wow.

Looking forward to the book. Not seen it mentioned much in this thread except about whether there even is a book with this set. There IS.A few pages can be glimpsed in that promo clip and i'll be very interested to get my hands on it. Noticed around 37 seconds in there's a an image of a page in the book of an old tee that was around circa 86-87 and i did in fact own one back then. Long gone now though. This tee:

Oh it does state G-MEX 19/07/86 ,that brief preview video footage. Cool.

What is that 11pm tv show they did BLT on? I don't remember any tv show of that name so i'm presuming it was a foreign one?

Fotz wrote: What is that 11pm tv show they did BLT on? I don't remember any tv show of that name so i'm presuming it was a foreign one?

Could it be this?

^ Ah thanks Andy. I have seen that clip before, yes. But i thought it was the Les Enfants De Rock thing. So now i'm a little puzzled. 😕

Fotz wrote: What is that 11pm tv show they did BLT on? I don't remember any tv show of that name so i'm presuming it was a foreign one?

“11PM” is the now legendary late night Japanese TV program that was aired between 1965 and 1990. It was infamous for its risqué contents back in the day. Bit like Eurotrash, you know what I mean?

New Order appeared on the show on 26 January, 1987, the day before the first night of their second Japan tour, and performed BLT. Musicians who were invited to the show would normally lip-synch a la TOTP, but they turned down the request from the staff and insisted on playing live. The result was a rather shambolic performance, typical of them in those times, interrupted and cut short by a commercial. The whole event remains as a minor legend talked about among the New Order fandom in Japan to this day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgbfIpEQXrs

Thanks for the 11pm explanation, TJO.

Any idea which channel this aired on, please?

perspexorange wrote: Thanks for the 11pm explanation, TJO.

Any idea which channel this aired on, please?

Wiki

Andy wrote:

Wiki

Thanks Andy. I did try checking online, but drew a blank. You're obviously more thorough than me.

So, Nippon TV, by the looks of it.

The Japanese One wrote:

... interrupted and cut short by a commercial.

So, with that YouTube clip, it's quite likely that that's the whole thing, i.e. it isn't that the uploader only had a bit of the broadcast. It's that the broadcaster only showed part of the performance.

Still waiting for the 'Brotherhood' set to appear on Amazon here in the UK so I can (hopefully) take advantage of the price drop guarantee and get it cheaper than on the official site. Think past sets appeared pretty quickly after the announcement, but no sign yet - or on other stores. Maybe they're trying to maximise sales from the official store first?

Great that this announcement has woken this forum up a bit and given us something to talk about again!

perspexorange wrote:

Andy wrote:

Wiki

Thanks Andy. I did try checking online, but drew a blank. You're obviously more thorough than me.

So, Nippon TV, by the looks of it.

The Japanese One wrote:

... interrupted and cut short by a commercial.

So, with that YouTube clip, it's quite likely that that's the whole thing, i.e. it isn't that the uploader only had a bit of the broadcast. It's that the broadcaster only showed part of the performance.

Both correct.

perspexorange wrote: CD2 - 2 - State Of The Nation (Japan Demo) * CD2 - 4 - As It Is When It Was (Japan Demo) *

DVD1 - Recording 'As It Is' and ‘Shame of the Nation’ at Denon Studios, Tokyo (May 1985).

Presumably these are related. I remember reading in Dennis' book (I think) that these two tracks were recorded together. Wonder if the AIIWIW demo is the same as that murky bootleg that's been doing the rounds for decades. Will be nice to hear in decent quality. If it is, strange that State Of The Nation (or Shame Of The Nation as it was called back then) wasn't leaked, considering they're from the same session.

For your information:

I remember a short article published in a Japanese music journal reporting New Order’s Tokyo recordings in early May, 1985, that commenced right after they finished the concert tour over there. They were recording As It Is When It Was and Shame Of The Nation (as mentioned in the article).

To the reporter who visited the recording studio, Peter Hook gave a following comment;

“Ryuichi Sakamoto was to produce them, and we were looking forward to that, but we ended up doing the job by ourselves due to circumstances.”

A missed opportunity isn’t it?

The Japanese One wrote:

perspexorange wrote: CD2 - 2 - State Of The Nation (Japan Demo) * CD2 - 4 - As It Is When It Was (Japan Demo) *

DVD1 - Recording 'As It Is' and ‘Shame of the Nation’ at Denon Studios, Tokyo (May 1985).

Presumably these are related. I remember reading in Dennis' book (I think) that these two tracks were recorded together. Wonder if the AIIWIW demo is the same as that murky bootleg that's been doing the rounds for decades. Will be nice to hear in decent quality. If it is, strange that State Of The Nation (or Shame Of The Nation as it was called back then) wasn't leaked, considering they're from the same session.

For your information:

I remember a short article published in a Japanese music journal reporting New Order’s Tokyo recordings in early May, 1985, that commenced right after they finished the concert tour over there. They were recording As It Is When It Was and Shame Of The Nation (as mentioned in the article).

To the reporter who visited the recording studio, Peter Hook gave a following comment;

“Ryuichi Sakamoto was to produce them, and we were looking forward to that, but we ended up doing the job by ourselves due to circumstances.”

Great info! Ta! Am excited to hear the demos and see the footage.

The Japanese One wrote:

A missed opportunity isn’t it?

Very much so. That would've been very interesting to hear what he would've done to the songs.

Mr Discography wrote: Still waiting for the 'Brotherhood' set to appear on Amazon here in the UK so I can (hopefully) take advantage of the price drop guarantee

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0DFYRYSRQ

£157.99

If you have Amazon Prime free delivery it becomes even more of a no-brainer given that the shipping on the official site is another £5.99

Thanks. Have pre-ordered now to 'lock in' the lowest price. Did the same with the 12's too.

I think I will always order from Amazon in future, after the annoyance that the PC&L set (which I ordered from the NO store) didn't come with that 'obi' band. Ones from Amazon did.

Ordered the Low Life one from Amazon and got the band. Not sure if anyone who ordered LL from the NO store got the 'obi'. Can anyone confirm?

Michael Johnson remix of BM'88 available to listen to now on Nemone's show on BBC 6Music. The show is still live so if you wind it back to 11:42am (UK/irish time) you will find an intro to the track (and Box set) from Nemone + Peter Hook, then the tune at 11:43am.

What jumped out at me? Less overdub sample bits than other versions of BM 88. No 'funky' guitar either. Also Bernard's vocals. They sound a bit 'naked'. I may be wrong here but my understanding was that the 1995 version had new vocals recorded for it but the 1988 version used the original vocals. If these are the original vocals then they sound a bit soft without (all) the original effects from 1983 (there's still some vocoder in places), and without many of those '88 overdubs on top.

It is, I would suggest not particularly remarkable. The tone of the drums/percussion is familiar, so this mix sounds like a less "produced" version of BM'88 than we may be used to. A halfway house between '83 and '88. So yeah, I can see why it didn't make the original '88 release.

[TWITTER]1834148191249269228[/TWITTER]

If her show is over when you see this, I reckon it will be 1hr,12 mins in.

^ Thanks, D!

I'm pretty sure Bernard's vocal on that mix are NOT his original vocals as heard on the original 1983 Blue Monday. Yes they sound a bit 'naked' but also his pronunciation in places is different from the original, surely? Unless there were a few vocal takes done originally for the 83 original and a different take was used for this mix? His pronunciation on this mix is more akin to how he's sang it live over the years.

Yep, a lot less gimmicky sound effects/samples on this mix than the released 88 version.

Yep, definitely a different vocal take, and it has that Kraftwerk zap sound and rhythm that sounds like ‘Numbers’ running through it. It’s alright and that’s about it.